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Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:15 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
(BTW - you're still quoting superseded codes.)
:D :D :D :roll: :roll:

Yeah... Yeah? , proove it!

Go on, provide the links to the official sites which show these regulations have been repealed. I have invited younto do so so before, but you have not done so. Why not?

Is that because as usual,YOU ARE MAKING IT UP AS YOU GO, because the laws have not (yet) been superceded?

(I know ec2007/2004 is likely to be repealed but replaced and probably soon, but it has not yet so it is still the legal position. Under the proposed but not yet agreed new law there is no chance of Greece telling Frontex what do.. Rather more sovereignty will migrate from the member states to centralised EU institutions, giving them powers to intervene without invitation. I am not aware of planned changes to other EU laws relating to Schengen )

Your answer does however demonstrate how weak and pathetic as a debator you really are, when persistently you make bald statements, such as the above about superceeded laws without producing one shred of evidence to support such a statement, such as a link to the official sites containing the new laws, but that is what you persistently do, engage in bland denial or bald assertion, coupled with distortion. Same old, same old.

Contrast that with the fact that both Erolz and I have consistently quoted from official sites, to support our position.

Now I do not know who you think you are convincing by such hollow arguments, as in my view you are fooling no one but yourself, but then someone has to feed your delusions: I really wonder how much credibility you retain here, but I suspect many now see you for what you are...deluded and pathetic.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:16 pm

Good to see the shared management of the external border is finally moving ....

FRONTEX ASSISTS GREECE IN TRANSPORTING MIGRANTS TO TURKEY
2016-04-08
Today Frontex assisted Greece in transporting 124 migrants on two ferries from the island of Lesbos to Turkey.

FRONTEX ASSISTS GREECE IN TRANSPORTING 202 MIGRANTS TO TURKEY
2016-04-04
On Monday, Frontex assisted Greece in transporting 202 migrants on three ferries from the islands of Lesbos and Chios to Turkey. The operation included 180 escort officers deployed by Frontex, as well as Greek officers.
FrontexNews

EU team work!
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:20 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
(BTW - you're still quoting superseded codes.)
:D :D :D :roll: :roll:

Yeah... Yeah? , proove it!

Go on, provide the links to the official sites which show these regulations have been repealed.


They don't have to be repealed to be superseded. I've provided ample quotes (over months) from officials stating how these EC evaluations and Schengen powers have had to be adjusted, modified and added to in light of extreme events.

Precedence has been set by what has actually been done.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:27 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Good to see the shared management of the external border is finally moving ....


Pathetic.

The police are responsible for detecting crimes and catching criminals. If I assist the police in detecting a crime or catching a criminal it does not mean that I therefore am responsible for detecting crime and catching criminals and that any failures to detect crime and catch criminals is a failure by me and not the police. The very notion is absurd.

Greece is responsible for the management of Schengen External borders that are within Greece. That FRONTEX and other agencies can and do assist Greece with trying to meet these responsibilities and obligations OF Greece does NOT mean that Greece is NOT responsible for them, but only FRONTEX or any other agency that assists are. The very notion is absurd.

You can continue to try and insist that the failures of Greece to meet its responsibilities and obligations in regards to management of external boarders within Greece, are not a failure of and by Greece but are in fact failures of and by FRONTEX or the EU as a whole or anybody BUT Greece, as you have done for months now. However reality is plain and clear and has been explicitly stated in every communication from the EU about this issue from the very first press release, through to the implementing decision of the EU Council itself.

The very first EU Commission press release that started all this wrote:the draft (now no longer draft) report concludes that Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by the Greek authorities.


Can you see what that says ?

That you try and turn 'Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations' into 'Anyone but Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations', with the relentlessness that you have over months now and with the ad hominen attacks against those that simply say 'Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations' means 'Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations', shows how you behave here, how you have always behaved here. It shows that reality, truth are just meaningless to you and have no relevance at all in the face of your need and desire to push an agenda that boils down to nothing more than 'Greeks are better than any other people in the world who are not Greek'. It is pathetic and you should be ashamed.
Last edited by erolz66 on Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:52 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:They don't have to be repealed to be superseded. I've provided ample quotes (over months) from officials stating how these EC evaluations and Schengen powers have had to be adjusted, modified and added to in light of extreme events.

Precedence has been set by what has actually been done.


Pathetic.

The Schegen Evaluation of Greece was carried out under Schengen LAW as it existed then and as it STILL exist today. The Schegen evaluation report on Greece that was produced as a result of these visits and that found "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by the Greek authorities" was produced under Schgen LAW as they existed then and STILL exist today. The EU Commission adopting this report was done under Schengen LAW as it existed then and as they STILL exist today. The EU Council (the highest policy ratifying body of the EU made up of the heads of states of member countries) implementing decision that gave Greece a three month deadline to rectify it's deficiencies was made under Schengen LAW as it existed then and as it STILL exist today. If Greece fails to do this then it will be under Schengen LAW as it exists today and will still exist when the three months are up, that the EU will be able to legally suspend Greece from Schengen should it decide such is necessary as a result of this failure.

The TRUTH is NOTHING has 'superseded' these LAWS that were used to do the evaluation in and of Greece, to produce the evaluation report on Greece, to have it adopted by the Commission, to have an implementing decision made by the EU Council, to have a three month time limit imposed. Just as NOTHING will 'supersede' these LAWS before the three month time limit expires, that allow the EU to suspend Greece from Schengen for up to two years if they fail to rectify the 'serious deficiencies' identified within that time period.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:03 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
(BTW - you're still quoting superseded codes.)
:D :D :D :roll: :roll:

Yeah... Yeah? , proove it!

Go on, provide the links to the official sites which show these regulations have been repealed.


They don't have to be repealed to be superseded. I've provided ample quotes (over months) from officials stating how these EC evaluations and Schengen powers have had to be adjusted, modified and added to in light of extreme events.

Precedence has been set by what has actually been done.


I find it perhaps significant that you have not actually quouted any of the officials saying the law has changed, but then I think you cannot, because i do not think any of them of them have. What they may have said, which is different, is that decisions taken and actions implemented in accordance with the law have been modified.

I do however invite you to identify those quotes, with appropriate links so the provenvce can be verified and the context established then we can debate what was actually said.

To Elucidate:
In a code based legal system as the EU operates under, that is to say a defined body of written law which has undergone specific procedures to become law, including promulgation by the commission and approval by the EU parliament, then, as necessary, adoption into national law, by national parliaments, no one has the power to change the law except by going through the defined process of promulgation of change by the commission and approval by the parliament, then, as necessary, adoption into national law by national parliaments. To do it any other way creates anarchy.

Rather it appears to me that either you do not understand the process of law making and changing, and the difference between law making and changing on the one hand, and how actions are taking under powers granted under the law and decisions flowing from those actions on the other, that, or as not unknown you are lying, mostly to your self, and/or engaging in wilful distortion. Which is it?

Now it may well be that eg under 562/2006 as amended and/or 1051/2013 and/or 1053/2013' which compose the body of relevent laws, the EU Carries out evaluations and decides a course of action, and issues a formal decision document accordingly, but that decision document while it may have the force of law, because it is made in accordance with legally defined procedures, it does constitute law Nor alter the law. Now it may well be that circumstances change, so in the light of that a new evaluation is undertaken, a new course of action is agreed, whereby the orgininal decision is amended or replaced, and a new formal decision document, with the force of law, is put in place, but again the law has not been changed. e.g. Regulations EC 2007/2004, as amended, 562/2006', 1051/2013' and 1053/2013 , etc., which constitute that body of law remain the same.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:25 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:I find it perhaps significant that you have not actually quouted any of the officials saying the law has changed,


Oh, does some official stand up and perhaps ring a bell to a cry of "Oh hear ye, oh hear ye. The law has been changed!" :roll:

I'm not going over your nonsense again. I gave you the relevant amendments in context. You now have to ask yourself why you are ignoring the wealth of other factors and offices that govern EU law, recommendations and actions and choosing one line of inquiry that is largely ignored from what has been taking place.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:48 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote: You now have to ask yourself .....


What you need to ask yourself is can someone who, when faced with the EU stating officially and publicly that
Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by the Greek authorities.

has spent months trying to argue what this actual means is
some entity other than Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by these other entities under the supervision and direction of the Greek authorities.

have any credibility left at all.

That is what you should be asking yourself, but of course you will not.

You could also ask yourself what credibility does someone have left, who has spent months trying to label as "liars and twisters and distorters of the truth and Greek haters", those who claim that when the EU says officially and publicly that
Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by the Greek authorities.
it means that the EU is saying that
Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by the Greek authorities.
?
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:53 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:(I know ec2007/2004 is likely to be repealed but replaced and probably soon, but it has not yet so it is still the legal position.


It's nonsense and it's ignored apart from you and erolz peddling it like it was the only view the EU had.

As I quoted before:

The European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External Borders of the Member States of the European Union was established by Council Regulation (EC) 2007/2004 (26.10.2004, OJ L 349/25.11.2004) having regard to the Treaty establishing the European Community.

This Regulation was later amended by the Regulation (EC) No 863/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 July 2007 establishing a mechanism for the creation of Rapid Border Intervention Teams and amending Council Regulation (EC) No 2007/2004 as regards that mechanism and regulating the tasks and powers of guest officers. It was last amended by the Regulation (EU) No 1168/2011 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 October 2011 amending Council Regulation (EC) No 2007/2004 establishing a European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External Borders of the Member States of the European Union.
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Re: Shared Management of Europe's External Borders

Postby erolz66 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:29 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote: It's nonsense and it's ignored apart from you and erolz peddling it like it was the only view the EU had.


This is just yet more of your standard tactic of distraction and distortion by wilful obfuscation.

The CURRENT rules that govern the Schengen Evaluation mechanism, the SAME rules that were used to carry out an evaluation in and of Greece and the SAME rules that WILL be used to decide if Greece will or will not be suspended from Schengen are all laid out here BY the EU in a simple clear format, that anyone who does NOT have an agenda of 'distraction and distortion by wilful obfuscation' can understand. As has already been shown.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/wh ... 210_en.pdf
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