Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

I've come to a conclusion that there are only 4 alternatives to solve the Cyprus problem:

1- A hybrid Federation+confedration based model.

2- A Swiss like pure Confederation based model.

3- 2 full sovereign independent states.(Division)

4- Accepting the minority status for TCs.

[Piratis]

ok .. so can you tell me in which of the 4 categories this falls:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211

The alternative that I think can be acceptable if we stop dreaming of things that can never be achieved, is two regions (call them states or whatever). Within one of these regions TCs can have autonomy on several matters like education, health, regional taxes etc. Then in Cyprus as a whole TCs will get proportional power to their population (or even a bit more in some cases like ministers), and a veto power to any constitution changes.

[insan]

The alternative that I think can be acceptable if we stop dreaming of things that can never be achieved, is two regions (call them states or whatever).

Ok. Right to settlement and buy property should be restricted in order to keep the balance of the powers of two communities in their own regions.

Within one of these regions TCs can have autonomy on several matters like education, health, regional taxes etc.

Within other of these regions GCs will have the same rights too.

Then in Cyprus as a whole TCs will get proportional power to their population (or even a bit more in some cases like ministers), and a veto power to any constitution changes.

Ok, but the working mechanism of the legislative and judicial branches should be based on seperate majority vote of two communities representatives. In case a violation of Cyprus constitution on legislative or judicial bodies, the representatives of the harmed community will be able to apply to the Supreme Court. And I don't think any of the component state representatives would dare to violate the rights of other community in a United Cyprus because:

1- The community which intentionally will attempt to violate the other communities rights would lost its prestige in the eyes of world.

2- If one of the communities intentionally attempts to violate the other communities rights be sure of that they will be blocked by the Supreme Court.


Under these circumstances; none of the self-interest groups or political parties would dare to violate the Cyprus constitution or the other communities rights. Equal power sharing on Legislative and judicial bodies will force them to have good relations, alliances and work the interests of all Cypriots. If they achieve this and work for the interests of all Cypriots, instead of working for their own interests or their own communities interests; be sure of that demilitarisation of Cyprus will be easier and faster.

[MicAtCyp]

I would like to forecast a bit on the last option i.e agreed division.
I assume that this solution will mean return of subtantial land to GCs.
First a feeling of disappointment among the Cypriots, together with a feeling of, yes there was no other way actually.
Second a feeling of releif among those GCs who will get back their villages, and a terrible agitation among all those who will lose their lands for ever.Some of them will get TC properties though as compensation.
Among the TCs a more terrible agitation because of shorthening of land, whereas most of the original TCs will not be compensated with any GC property as there is none available already! However at the same time a feeling of "at last we made it we are an independent recognised state.Now lets see what economic miracles will do."

The GCs continue more or less as they are today, most propably the 2 new states will still permit crossings like they do today.

Then we start the economic competition.Guess who will win. By the way we are talking of the northern state being outside the EU and most propably still dependent from Turkey.
The standard of living there starts getting higher because of tourism.More settlers come in and the Standard of Living lowers again.Rises a bit after a while, more settlers come in. So eventually the northern state understands there is no other way than to demand complete cut off from Turkey and complete self governing.A new clash with Turkey.Agitation and fighting with nationalists.An explossive situation.
The result: First Scenario:Most TCs abandon Cyprus and the northern part annexes with Turkey.Becomes an official Adana province following the fate of that province.
Meanwhile all TCs are thrown out of the ex- Republic of Cyprus.
Second scenario.The northern part becomes indeed an independent state and controls the number of settlers.Tries to get in the EU.Recognises it is impossible to remain by itself for too long.Economic difficulties, too much population etc etc. If it makes it into the EU then Cyprus is united again somehow. If not then perhaps it will seek joining with the souithern part into a FEDERAL STATE!!!!! Although the southern part may no longer be interested. Or perhaps it will follow it's fate as a small independent state always seeking for opurtunities and alliances of convenience....

That's how I see partition developing. Whats your opinion?

[Piratis]

Partition is the worst case scenario.

ok, a parenthesis here: The Annan plan was worst than partition. If partition is death, the Annan plan was death as well, but on top of which we would have to pay for an expensive funeral.

Partition is just temporary. Without reuniting the island peace will never come.

[insan]

First a feeling of disappointment among the Cypriots, together with a feeling of, yes there was no other way actually.

That's true.

Second a feeling of releif among those GCs who will get back their villages, and a terrible agitation among all those who will lose their lands for ever.

But bots states may allow a certain percentage of Cypriots to returm back to their properties and live there as a minority.

Some of them will get TC properties though as compensation.

Right.

Among the TCs a more terrible agitation because of shorthening of land, whereas most of the original TCs will not be compensated with any GC property as there is none available already!

I don't think there will be TCs who would feel terribly agitated because of giving the land back that didn't belong to them. But yes, those who are not aware of what belongs to whom or consider the lands gained at war; what you said is true...

The GCs continue more or less as they are today, most propably the 2 new states will still permit crossings like they do today.

Surely.

Then we start the economic competition.Guess who will win.

There's no need to compete... Raising the life standard and democratization will be the two main aims of TCs.

By the way we are talking of the northern state being outside the EU and most propably still dependent from Turkey.

I personaly don't bother being in EU. Even I think that you didn't need to join EU... And I think a recognized state in Cyprus can feed its 200.000 or 300.000(If A part of TC return) people with tourism industry and its side sectors.

The standard of living there starts getting higher because of tourism.More settlers come in and the Standard of Living lowers again. Rises a bit after a while, more settlers come in. Rises a bit after a while, more settlers come in. So eventually the northern state understands there is no other way than to demand complete cut off from Turkey and complete self governing. A new clash with Turkey.Agitation and fighting with nationalists.An explossive situation.

I don't think the dominant political powers and civil society groups of TCs would allow more settlers to come in.

Or perhaps it will follow it's fate as a small independent state always seeking for opurtunities and alliances of convenience....

This is highly probable....

[Piratis]

Insan, Cyprus is our home. Cyprus is for all of us. Either you like it or you don't we co-own this house, and all rooms belong to everybody. If you want to live alone, go buy a house somewhere else. No part of Cyprus is for sale.

Partition can only be the result of force (like it is now), and peace will never come this way. (and thats not just a prediction)

[insan]

Insan, Cyprus is our home. Cyprus is for all of us. Either you like it or you don't we co-own this house, and all rooms belong to everybody. If you want to live alone, go buy a house somewhere else. No part of Cyprus is for sale.

I think you just dreamt of that I said something like the above quoted nonesense. This house belongs to two Cypriot families. One is TC family and the other is GC family. We are all Cypriots but we are the Cyprus' two major and distinct families. If you don't want the TC family to be your politicaly equal partner in the apartment we are living; let's abandon this apartment and buy two new houses which fits our own families needs seperately and independently!

Partition can only be the result of force (like it is now), and peace will never come this way. (and thats not just a prediction)

Partition will be the result of majority of GC family intransigency on the issue of political equality.[/quote]

[eracles]

Partition will be the result of majority of GC family intransigency on the issue of political equality.

only if we racially divide GC & TC.

The problem as i see it is this paradox of being at once Cypriot and then subdefining ourselves as TC or GC.

For what purpose?

[insan]

only if we racially divide GC & TC.

The problem as i see it is this paradox of being at once Cypriot and then subdefining ourselves as TC or GC.

For what purpose?

We are all Cypriots because Cyprus is our homeland. We are TCs and GCs because of our historical background, social, political, economical and cultural relations.


"On May 2nd 2002, the House of Representatives of the Republic of Cyprus voted the ratification of the civil marriage law 1990 (Law 21/90). The main feature of this ratification was the extension of the applicability of this law to Turkish-Cypriots, who up to that point were legally unable to conclude civil marriages under Cypriot law. The change was largely the result of Kemal Selim’s law suit against the Republic of Cyprus at the European Court of Human rights (Application no. 47293/99) –a case that concluded in ‘friendly settlement’ on July 16th 2002."


On the other hand if a GC wish to marry with a TC girl he has to have his "büllük" cut.(Sünnet = to be circumcision). Though it's not a legal requirement but traditionaly is a must.


For 100s of years; a large group of GCs considered TC community as the colonialists of Cyprus(Ottoman Settlers) and struggled to remove them from Cyprus.(Enosis). TCs struggled against Enosists to maintain their communal existence in Cyprus. By constituting 1/4 of the total population in late 1800s they demanded political equality on legislative and judicial bodies during the British Era. The strong opposition amongst the frontmen and politicians of two communities immediately spreaded to the majority of two communities and therefor affected their all other communal and individual relations negatively.

And there are lot more reasons which mainly arised their historical backgrounds, social, political, economical and cultural relations.


1955-74 period is still a bleeding sore for the older generations of two communities. Especially for the ones who lost their loved ones. Telling them they should forget the past and look forward can't help... The same group of extremists and a new generation of extremists still maintain their bad habits... The ones who should have taken their lessons from the past tragedies has never stopped their provocative actions till now. Just have a look at Machi, Volkan, Simerini, Vatan; even Halkin Sesi and Filelefteros.