Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

I would most certainly go along with you GIG but since you are not making the distinction that ought to apply to T/Cs ,

What *distinction* that ought to apply to TCs? Is there some opt-out with morality for TCs?

This is about whether Turkey's actions should be forgiven since we tend to forgive accidents/mistakes.

The T/Cs are as much a part of Cyprus as the G/Cs are. Faced with events developing following the GREEK military coup against Makarios, the real concern of their own existence with Sampson taking over, is it not natural that they would warmly welcome Turkeys invasion ?
GIG, Im as much a patriot as you, the difference is that my patriotism is wholly attributed to my own motherland, which also happens to be the motherland of people such as Kikapu , Erolz, Deniz and many more T.Cs.

Given the right atmosphere, an atmosphere that must be created and nurtured by us, the G/Cs , the vast majority of T/Cs would wish nothing more than the removal of Turkish troops. They must, the T/Cs, be confident that they will be a part of their homeland, the island of Cyprus.

You do not know, as I do, the T/Cs. They are just like us, Cypriots first and foremost, give or take some such as ,,, Vordo,

[erolz66]

I am personally of the opinion that a 'better' poll / question, one that is more relevant to what I was trying to get across in my post / 'story' that is the basis for this one, would be

Should we all make conscious effort to try and not let a hatred for the actions of a Nation, no matter how justified the hatred for that action is, inform and define our attitudes generally towards every person who holds that nationality or is even connected to it and every and any and all subsequent action by the Nation, or not ?

Or.

Does choosing to try and not let a hatred for the actions of a Nation, no matter how justified the hatred for that action is, inform and define our attitudes generally towards every person who holds that nationality or is even connected to it and every and any and all subsequent actions by the Nation, help or hinder our chances of creating a better Cyprus for all Cypriots than we have managed to date.

[Lordo]

I would most certainly go along with you GIG but since you are not making the distinction that ought to apply to T/Cs ,

What *distinction* that ought to apply to TCs? Is there some opt-out with morality for TCs?

This is about whether Turkey's actions should be forgiven since we tend to forgive accidents/mistakes.

you lost it love well and tryly. with an accident there is no guilt hence no need for forgiveness. the same with a mistake. if it was not deliberate thwere is no need for forgiveness.

the real question can forgive those gc who fired on the terggs as they were landing to remove the fascists dick-tatorship from government of cyprus and turning an action of intervention to an action of geographical changes so tcs will never face such dangers ever again. if you can forgive them, you may not go to hell but rerally so much hatred you would not be happy anywhere else but hell.

[Lordo]

And why have you not voted?

You should have asked why he felt the need to re-registered with a new nick for just one post

I'm a new member and not a re-register.

ah ye well that may well be true but doesnt wash with the forum asshole members here. every one of them have double identity so they cannot imagine anybody with just one.

when it comes to what you posted. they are new to the idea that gcs actually killed any innocent tcs ever. for instance the assholes believed the propaganda that when 4 villages were massacred by gcs, it was the terggs that did. you coming on here and telling it how it was especially as you witnessed it, you will be hounded off the forum. there is only one way to survive on this forum and it is to give as good as they do and hit as low as they do. these bar stewerds understand nothing else. they are supporters of the scum that did the killing in those times and given half a chance they would do it themselves now. there is one swine going around saying he is ready for the struggle and is willing to lose 20,000 gc as sacrifice.

just so you understand what you are up against.

[GreekIslandGirl]

The T/Cs are as much a part of Cyprus as the G/Cs are.

I really don't understand why you think the poll excludes any possible input from TCs.

The story was about a mother forgiving the killer of her son because it was due to an accident. This story was given to me in the context of accusations about my hatred for Turkey's atrocities and criminal actions as an example of choosing to hate or presumably choosing to forgive.

So the question becomes would anyone else choose to forgive Turkey's crimes?

Or am I the only one who things Turkey's invasion of Cyprus (plus other crimes) cannot be forgiven in the same way?

It can be answered by Sri Lankans, Turks, Kurds, Chinese, Brits, Greeks, TCs, Italians etc. It has nothing to do with one specific group of people.

I don't understand if you're trying to say TCs shouldn't have to judge on moral issues.

[johnoddy]

...my dislike of "Greeks", is only equal to my dislike of "Turks". Although i can respect a person (as an individual) for their opinion, having allowed me, mine. Boors, bullies, and murderers are another story.

...i never saw Cyprus as Greek, i always saw Cyprus as Cypriot, so did my cousin the closest i had to a brother and the rest of my family, actually. Many years later with his sister we recalled those wonderful nights together under the stars, when we were younger, and before the coup. She cried for the shame, because she never knew that the Flag of Cyprus represented her, then. I cried and felt the shame of knowing that the Flag of Greece could never represent me, and as a Greek i felt the shame of having to forgive those who could not understand my shame.

...i know there is a man behind the door of my great uncle's i am afraid to see. All these years where i have expressed the loving nature of one who follows, the way, i fear most how i would fail myself with him.

...and what of my dear friend Grivas, the brother, is he dead, his story untold; that would be a shame, because he was as great a man and maybe greater as a man because he knew when to stop, and on the holidays, although the "Greeks" would spit on him (i remember) he did not say a word.

My thoughts and understanding go out to you my OP, because it is a struggle for all of us, because i sense you need this support, and because i believe your intentions are for goodness; cheers.

@johnoddy, welcome. a question for you i have never found the answer to; of the UN soldiers stationed in Cyprus how many died and from whom?
..although you were shot at, i have been led to believe that, in all these years, not one of the UN Forces were killed, or injured, by a Grecophone in action; is this true?

I can certainly say that none of my Regiment, at that time, were killed or injured and to my recollection the only mortality was due to a road accident. We were under strict instructions never to get involved in any conflict hence we could only observe and report any atrocities we came across. We were issued with 5 rounds that were only to be used if we felt our lives were in danger, we could not use them in order to protect civilians, we felt helpless and, at times used our own bodies to protect civilians from groups of GNG, it was a hopeless situation and we felt like toothless guard dogs.

[erolz66]

The story was about a mother forgiving the killer of her son because it was due to an accident.

That is how you chose to see it and characterise it. The story was from my perspective and the perspective of the point I was making, that the mother had every 'right' to hate this man for killing her son, that such hatred would be 'natural' and 'understandable' - yet she chose to NOT do this, to not give into that hatred. That was the actual point of the story that I , the person relating it, was trying to make. That such things are a decision, something that we can control and a choice that we can make.

This story was given to me in the context of accusations about my hatred for Turkey's atrocities and criminal actions as an example of choosing to hate or presumably choosing to forgive.

Well again that is your perspective and nothing any one will or can say will ever shake you from that if past behaviour is any predictor of future behaviour. As far as there was an accusation, it was specifically NOT that you had hatred for the atrocities committed by Turkey but that you appear to chose to let such inform, and define your views and options about all Turks and Turkey in general. I distinction yopu will invariably continue to ignore and pretend does not exist.

Or am I the only one who things Turkey's invasion of Cyprus (plus other crimes) cannot be forgiven in the same way?

As ever you 'zoom in' on a single irrelevant point, to the point I was trying to make, and ignore everything else. I used the 'story' I did because I had just seen it myself, it had moved me to tears and was 'in my mind'. This obsession of yours that my whole objective was to try and create an 'equivalence' between the sins of the young man and the sins of Turkey, is just not true. It will not matter how many times I say it or how explicitly I say this is not what my intent or how many time I categorically state I do not believe that the scale or the type or the degree of the young man's sins in any way equate to those of Turkey - you will just keep on repeating and making out this was the 'point' of what I wrote.

The story could just as well be about a survivor of the holocaust refusing to let what they had suffered at the hands of some Germans and the German nation define their attitudes to ALL Germans and any and all actions by the German nation. The point that I was trying to make would remain the same. That such refusal to 'give into hate' (whatever the source of hate is, whatever its form, its degree) is actually a matter of personal choice and not an inevitability. That such refusal to give in to hate is something we should all aspire to.

That was my point, is my point and will remain my point through all the inevitable repeating from you, in one form or another, that it was not regardless of anything anyone could ever say, that will most certainly follow.

[GreekIslandGirl]

The story was about a mother forgiving the killer of her son because it was due to an accident.

That is how you chose to see it and characterise it. The story was from my perspective and the perspective of the point I was making, that the mother had every 'right' to hate this man for killing her son, that such hatred would be 'natural' and 'understandable' - yet she chose to NOT do this, to not give into that hatred.

Your perspective is that she had a 'right to hatred'. But that's not my perspective. It was an accident and grief is the paramount emotion, not hatred.

I'm still struggling to see how hatred for Turkey's actions (our ongoing discussion) triggered your need to present this story of forgiveness other than as condensed in the poll questions.

Maybe you're suggesting that I should just CHOOSE to not hate Turkey's actions. But again, Turkey's actions don't qualify for the same evaluation as that of an accident or mistake.

[erolz66]

Your perspective is that she had a 'right to hatred'. But that's not my perspective. It was an accident and grief is the paramount emotion, not hatred.

My perspective is that for her to end up hating this man who killed her entirely innocent child by his negligence would be entirely understandable. Yet she CHOSE not to. I think that such CHOOSING not to in such a case is exceptional behaviour, not 'expected' behaviour. That it showed a strength of character from her that we should all aspire to.

I'm still struggling to see how hatred for Turkey's actions (our ongoing discussion) triggered your need to present this story of forgiveness other than as condensed in the poll questions.

This is your ongoing discussion - it is not mine.

Maybe you're suggesting that I should just CHOOSE to not hate Turkey's actions. But again, Turkey's actions don't qualify for the same evaluation as that of an accident or mistake.

No I am suggesting that you should choose to try your best to not let a hatred for Turkeys actions become a hatred for ALL TURKS or things Turkish. Just as I suggest I should choose to try and not let a hatred of certain GC or Greek actions become a hatred of ALL GC or Greeks or things Greek. Can you REALLY not see the difference between what you think I am suggesting, as expressed above and what I have repeatedly explicitly said I am suggesting multiple times now ?

[GreekIslandGirl]

Your perspective is that she had a 'right to hatred'. But that's not my perspective. It was an accident and grief is the paramount emotion, not hatred.

My perspective is that for her to end up hating this man who killed her entirely innocent child by his negligence would be entirely understandable. Yet she CHOSE not to. I think that such CHOOSING not to in such a case is exceptional behaviour, not 'expected' behaviour. That it showed a strength of character from her that we should all aspire to.

I don't see her reaction as exceptional. I don't think she actively CHOSE to not hate. It's more normal to feel grief, anger and loss after an accident or a mistake.

Maybe you need to come to terms with that first before you decide it's in any way helpful or desirable to choose to forgive the atrocities of Turkey.

Turkey has done a LOT of bad things - deliberately - and continues with many of those BAD things. This is NOT behavior that is forgivable. Otherwise, humanity is lost.


“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
― Edmund Burke