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BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:48 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:This is a one in a million event (or perhaps even longer odds).


Yes well a Billion Dollar Corporation like Apple is going to be a one in a million for sure. It was the IPOD which resurrected the company from Doom. Remember, 1000 songs in your pocket? Innovation. Such a very simple idea too. It's not having the money to do it, but rather coming up with weird and wonderful ideas that will change people's lives enough to want whatever it is you're pushing. That's the number one problem.

But as you filter down it gets far more common than Apple when you get into the Small and Medium Enterprise sector worth only a few millions and not Billions. Corporations which employ 10 to 500 people rather than the Apples and Microsofts which employ 500,000 people.

I never said it was easy, Even setting up a business employing 10 people is not easy but plenty of people have done it without any capital.


Watch the program ..... then comment! It is about the SUPER-RICH and 'us'! The us is a reference to the 99.9% and the middle classes which are disappearing fast .... very fast. What you and I and the vast majority of reasonably well off pensioners have today ..... we would NEVER achieve if we tried the same route to a comfortable life as a young person today! You are referring to the exceptions to the rule .... which there will always be. The program is about the masses and the 0.1% maybe even the 0,01%. :roll:


Yes they always say that the middle class is disappearing. I disagree with that.

All the evidence suggest to me that the middle class is expanding in many countries, and that the average wealth of the 99.9% middle class is increasing overall.

Evidence also suggests that real term wages are increasing, as well as work conditions, safety and family friendly hours.

You keen on having a class war RH?

Oh and btw, it's not hard buying a business or corporate jet. You don't have to be rich to own one either. You can have a fleet of 4 and cater to the Chinese Super Rich if you like and actually turn big profits because the Chinese Super Rich are also drunk and won't fly Commercial Airlines. You just need to know where and how to fund it, and there is no shortage of money for extravagance either and you can make money out of it.

The issue is, there are not that many people able to take a huge punt like this or handle the stress but in theory and if the opposite were true then a lot of operators will go bankrupt because prices will be driven down.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:49 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:This is a one in a million event (or perhaps even longer odds).


Yes well a Billion Dollar Corporation like Apple is going to be a one in a million for sure. It was the IPOD which resurrected the company from Doom. Remember, 1000 songs in your pocket? Innovation. Such a very simple idea too. It's not having the money to do it, but rather coming up with weird and wonderful ideas that will change people's lives enough to want whatever it is you're pushing. That's the number one problem.

But as you filter down it gets far more common than Apple when you get into the Small and Medium Enterprise sector worth only a few millions and not Billions. Corporations which employ 10 to 500 people rather than the Apples and Microsofts which employ 500,000 people.

I never said it was easy, Even setting up a business employing 10 people is not easy but plenty of people have done it without any capital.


Watch the program ..... then comment! It is about the SUPER-RICH and 'us'! The us is a reference to the 99.9% and the middle classes which are disappearing fast .... very fast. What you and I and the vast majority of reasonably well off pensioners have today ..... we would NEVER achieve if we tried the same route to a comfortable life as a young person today! You are referring to the exceptions to the rule .... which there will always be. The program is about the masses and the 0.1% maybe even the 0,01%. :roll:


OH, I watched a third of it already and I might watch the rest of it later. The reason why I haven't watched all of it is because it is not saying anything I don't already know.

It's true there are the "haves nots" the "haves" and the "have lots" (the 0.01 percenters). There is always going to feelings of injustice and inequality from the "have nots" and an element of envy from the "haves". It's human nature. And the Banks (Citibank) are always going to try to cater to the 0.01 percenters as well as the poor so that they can buy a house and make huge profits over it selling people unattainable at times dreams.

And the Super wealthy are only going to get wealthier because they have a lot of Capital they can risk in order to invest. What does it matter since money isn't exactly an exhaustible resource and are only little qualified data entries?

It's always been around, even in the Medieval Periods in Europe. I don't believe anything has changed in the last 100 years except for the fact that WE ALL have access to all these Banking and Investment schemes and fortunes will always favour the brave and those willing to work harder (or smarter) than the rest. There are also quite a lot of pitfalls, like losing money and even going bankrupt. There are many very wealthy people who have been bankrupt, once or twice or even 3 times in their lifetimes.

Overall, society today has never been fairer when you compare it to society last century or even earlier. Now any Fifiri can go to their Banker an open a business and if Fifiri is a hard worker and clever, he might be able to buy himself a Ferrari or Lamborghini in a few tears time. It all depends on what Fifiri wants. Does Fifiri want to climb the social ladder, put his children through Ivory League Tie schools or public schools etc?

Times have never been better for Fifiri! :lol:

The problem is with all those who are not as hard working or as smart as Fifiri. They just want everything for free and have the lifestyle of the 0.01 percenters. How dare those 0.01 percenters etc etc.

At least Fifiri is trying and maybe that makes Fifiri happy giving his children more opportunity in the future and maybe Fifiri just wants an exclusive membership at an expensive Golf club and hit a few rounds. Yes society has gone all drunk and the extravagance of the 0.01 percenters is scary, frightening and unfair even but there are those that demonstrate on the streets and there are those like Get Real who have opened their CSS business having a go. Humble beginnings but there were also humble beginnings for Steve Jobs when he set up Apple in his parents garage.

And since all money is manufactured or created, what is wrong with Fifiri going to his Banker to fund his next project since all it is is a data entry on a computer when all of a sudden a Banker puts x amount to his name so that Fifiri can go into business and pay interest on or even buy a Gulstream IV Corporate Jet so that he can rip off Chinese and Russian Billionaires whilst he hits a few rounds of Golf? :lol:

Fifiri can then employ people who can struggle to pay their mortgage while he buys a Ferrari.The smarter ones with their university degrees will be Fifiri's pilots and engineers and be able to buy a Mercedes Bens or Hummer! The poor hosty however that has to sit on the Billionaires lap poring French Champagne is probably close enough to minimum wage. Shouldn't have wagged school after all or smoked that pot behind the sheds. :lol:

The downside is that poor Fifiri won't have many friends because all his "envious" friends from the village will hate his guts when they see him rock up at Larnaca in his Gulstream IV with a piece of arse half his age. :lol:

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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:42 pm

Paphitis wrote:
...

I never said it was easy, Even setting up a business employing 10 people is not easy but plenty of people have done it without any capital.


It’s a gamble and most don’t succeed.

UK business start-up rates are increasing, but research still suggests that more than half of all start-ups don’t last beyond five years.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/bu ... vival.html
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:49 pm

I 've heard all those theories of becoming rich from doing business , getting risks, starting from zero, applying innovative/clever ideas etc from people who have never tried it, that makes me laugh .
Yeah try doing it and you will see how easy it is.... :wink:

For a start notice that the majority of "successful" businessmen are in reality very stupid. In most cases they were just lucky to have employed a really clever person who boosted their company. I have worked overseas and when I came back to Cyprus i worked for 3 different "successful" companies in Cyprus. All 3 owners them were such cases. The owners of the last one was really acting like a spoiled child bugging me (and others)all day to tell him" new ideas". Point is he always turned them down. I told myself "you idiot you think this idea won't work? Wait till i leave you and start my own business". And in fact that's what I did.... but that was out of necessity. The guy was at the verge of bankruptcy and within just 5 years I remained jobless for the 3rd time. There was no other choice for me other start my own business.And I was shit scared, desperate, and without much savings.

It lasted up until the crash of 2013.Thank God I was not one of those who was depended on Banks, I just cashed all my capital and just saved my money while still keeping the company alive without any profit (actually some minor annual loss). So that's it, it's over for me, just some illusion that the good old days may come back. I just keep the company alive with no profit, because it keeps me busy, otherwise I would go crazy doing nothing all day :cry:

What I would like to point out is this:You don't need to apply super innovative/clever ideas or get into too much of a risk to make it.
Business opportunities are obvious most of the times. UNFORTUNATELY and I would stress that, it's always a matter of how much capital you have. Nobody is that crazy to risk it all. The logical thing to do is risk some 25%

I would say some recent business opportunities here in Cyprus are:
a)Recycling business --> sucking money from EU funds. You need to have connections with the government. Plus 2-3 million capital
b)Photovoltaics.You need to have connections mainly with Electricity Authority or other government bodies because they are subsidized. Capital required between 30-300K
Traditional business opportunities
a)Importing cheap clothing/shoes/appliances from China with just minimum capital about 20K was a business opportunity the last 25 years
b)Franchising known names of restaurants/cafes etc minimum capital about 150K but a very risky business and the profit not that much
c)Land Developing and hotel business were the fruit of the past, dead nowadays

Basically there are business opportunities in every field you can imagine.Even in the aviation industry. However I don't think anyone who has a good fixed income like Paphitis would ever be that crazy to set up an aviation company (either alone or with a few other partners) by renting planes, put all their savings at risk just to become millionaires. Some people did it in Cyprus setting up Helios and we 've seen what happened .

I would say if you have a steady job, and you get paid above average, and you have no savings to put at risk, just forget about it.Happiness is not about money, and life is pretty short.

NB. The video is not watchable. i am not sure of what goes on in other Countries, but here in Cyprus the middle class is by 90% made of overpaid public servants, and Bank employees. How long will it last I don't know, but it's really sad watching young people working in the private sector for salaries as low as 500- 700 Euros.
What I think we are heading at is a new social class. The class of the working slaves who get paid just above the poverty line
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:13 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:It’s a gamble and most don’t succeed.


I agree with you. In some cases e.g in the culinary business the success rate is less that 1:20.
More over you may set up something really good and be forced to close down either because you don't have connections with the Government or haven't lubricated enough the local authorities or even the police. They could find a million excuses the usual ones being the necessary "licences" E.g the recent case of the guy who tried to set up a factory for treating gold.
Betting offices, Cabarets etc all lubricate the police...
Next thing coming will be the cazinos :wink:

NB.Most new business are actually from people who are already in business. Start from zero and go compete any of them and see what happens.
When I first started they put fire at least 2 times at my door, why?
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:23 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:I 've heard all those theories of becoming rich from doing business , getting risks, starting from zero, applying innovative/clever ideas etc from people who have never tried it, that makes me laugh .
Yeah try doing it and you will see how easy it is.... :wink:

For a start notice that the majority of "successful" businessmen are in reality very stupid. In most cases they were just lucky to have employed a really clever person who boosted their company. I have worked overseas and when I came back to Cyprus i worked for 3 different "successful" companies in Cyprus. All 3 owners them were such cases. The owners of the last one was really acting like a spoiled child bugging me (and others)all day to tell him" new ideas". Point is he always turned them down. I told myself "you idiot you think this idea won't work? Wait till i leave you and start my own business". And in fact that's what I did.... but that was out of necessity. The guy was at the verge of bankruptcy and within just 5 years I remained jobless for the 3rd time. There was no other choice for me other start my own business.And I was shit scared, desperate, and without much savings.

It lasted up until the crash of 2013.Thank God I was not one of those who was depended on Banks, I just cashed all my capital and just saved my money while still keeping the company alive without any profit (actually some minor annual loss). So that's it, it's over for me, just some illusion that the good old days may come back. I just keep the company alive with no profit, because it keeps me busy, otherwise I would go crazy doing nothing all day :cry:

What I would like to point out is this:You don't need to apply super innovative/clever ideas or get into too much of a risk to make it.
Business opportunities are obvious most of the times. UNFORTUNATELY and I would stress that, it's always a matter of how much capital you have. Nobody is that crazy to risk it all. The logical thing to do is risk some 25%

I would say some recent business opportunities here in Cyprus are:
a)Recycling business --> sucking money from EU funds. You need to have connections with the government. Plus 2-3 million capital
b)Photovoltaics.You need to have connections mainly with Electricity Authority or other government bodies because they are subsidized. Capital required between 30-300K
Traditional business opportunities
a)Importing cheap clothing/shoes/appliances from China with just minimum capital about 20K was a business opportunity the last 25 years
b)Franchising known names of restaurants/cafes etc minimum capital about 150K but a very risky business and the profit not that much
c)Land Developing and hotel business were the fruit of the past, dead nowadays

Basically there are business opportunities in every field you can imagine.Even in the aviation industry. However I don't think anyone who has a good fixed income like Paphitis would ever be that crazy to set up an aviation company (either alone or with a few other partners) by renting planes, put all their savings at risk just to become millionaires. Some people did it in Cyprus setting up Helios and we 've seen what happened .

I would say if you have a steady job, and you get paid above average, and you have no savings to put at risk, just forget about it.Happiness is not about money, and life is pretty short.

NB. The video is not watchable. i am not sure of what goes on in other Countries, but here in Cyprus the middle class is by 90% made of overpaid public servants, and Bank employees. How long will it last I don't know, but it's really sad watching young people working in the private sector for salaries as low as 500- 700 Euros.
What I think we are heading at is a new social class. The class of the working slaves who get paid just above the poverty line


No it is NEVER easy and I wouldn't call it stress free. There are major risks and it takes a particular person. And business makes them happy because they are ambitious and don't want to settle for an average job or an average lifestyle.

You will find that most successful business people are very driven, and yes there are ways of raising cash but you need to fulfill many criteria.

First, people need to stick to what they know best and where their passion lies. Never go into anything you know nothing about unless you have partners that do.

How do you raise money. There are many ways, but first you require a business plan. And in that plan you need to somehow forecast your projections. You could be way off mark but sources of Capital could be from any of the following:
1) Equity Loans from the Bank. A Bank can lend you up to 80% of everything you own without insurance,
2) Angel Sponsors - a Rich Benefactor or Investor who will hand over cash, usually for a silent stake in the business,
3) Tenders and Contracts - Government or Business. Yes you can tender for a number of Government Contracts even before you're set up and if you get them, then you sub lease what is required until you buy your plant and equipment.
4) A business can also be a number of individuals and entities forming a Consortium which increases their liquidity and borrowing power and what they get in return is a stake - Business Partnerships.

Now obviously, if someone limits their exposure to the Banks, they also reduce their overhead but that will depend on the type of business.

Business people are usually just wired differently. A lot of them say they just can't work for other people. Or they have some ambition if you are going into something more than a take away for instance.

Let's say Aviation is your game. Well, all you need is the following amounts of money:
1) For 2 Gulfstreams or 2 Hawker 400s, you will need about $10 million USD from buy from America. A lot of cheap hardware there!
2) Insurance and Air Operators Certificate circa 500K
3) Running Capital about a million.

Doesn't sound that unachievable now as opposed to what most people believe is the case. I still recommend staying away unless you know the industry inside out. It can be very brutal. One engine change and you have blown 500K overnight! On the bright side, that's only about 5 Charters potentially.

We are talking about money that is not hard to raise. It's also a growth market because the richer are only gonna get richer and you would be feeding on their audacious vanity.

You could start with 1 and have a cross hire agreement.

To get contracts in the hand to actually have the work for these aircraft is actually very easy. You can negotiate contracts with some high flyers - businesses in China for instance. A Government Tender to transport dignitaries although that is more difficult until you're known.

You have the image of being very wealthy (part of the 0.01 percenters) but you're not at all. You're basically just a smart Fifiri playing with expensive toys.

Now I don't recommend anyone take any gambles like this unless you know the industry inside out. Now, I am not doing it, but I know people who are. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh and they are NOT stupid! They are risk takers though, because there are many of these types of Jet's owned by Rich people who don't know what they are doing and because their business is down, they have them re-possessed. :wink:
Last edited by Paphitis on Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:58 pm

Just to explain to you guys that it can even be a bit of a rort. Wealth is only on paper after all.

Let's say there are 10 guys that form a business. They each have a 10% share in that businesses.

They each own property worth 2 million each on average. They can each borrow up to 1.6 million from their equity.

They then form their Company. They can also set up a number of subsidiaries under that Company and each company is Limited. You can bankrupt one if things go bad to protect the other businesses and so that the Partners can also protect their personal assets which they have leveraged. You can do other stuff like put everything under Trusts or under a spouses name.

So basically, you can own a number of assets as part of the business but form Business units based on their Geography or whatever. So if one part is not performing, you only lose the assets in that Company but the rest will still operate and still owned by the same people if that makes sense.

Well these Businesses now have 10 x 1.6 million in funds in the Bank. That's 16 million. They can now see the same Bank Managers they borrowed Equity Loans from and borrow another 12.8 million.

Their businesses now have 28.8 million in liquidity which they can use to buy Plant and Equipment, Parts, employ people, advertise and travel etc etc.

Now, if you're smart enough, work out how the Banks get their money if things go wrong! :lol:

Basically, the Banks are shelling out money that doesn't exist and can't be paid back unless this business is successful. These business People, have basically used the same Equity to borrow from a Bank/s at least twice over. :mrgreen:

Now if you're a smart business person, you wouldn't do things to this extent and you would borrow conservatively and expand slowly. But I offer this as an illustration of just how easy it can be to many people with not a lot of money to begin with.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:16 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
...

I never said it was easy, Even setting up a business employing 10 people is not easy but plenty of people have done it without any capital.


It’s a gamble and most don’t succeed.

UK business start-up rates are increasing, but research still suggests that more than half of all start-ups don’t last beyond five years.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/bu ... vival.html


It depends on what kind of business. You have to know the market. Not so much if you're just being a sole trader, coffee shop owner or fast food take away owner. But if yoiu go into something very niche, and you know who you're pitching to, then the ball park is your own. And businesses only go down because they are under Capitalised. They run out of money. You need to set it up where money is no issue for at least 3 to 5 years in my opinion. That is a reasonable amount of time investment to get a business established in the market place.

The reason why you would borrow, seek Angel Investors or set up a consortium of people and entities is because these people and entities can pitch in as you become a going concern.

Frankly, I believe some people get rich because most people put in in the too hard basket and don't try which is just as well, because if everyone did try it, then it would be a lot harder and a lot more competitive than what it already is.

It's all very possible, and very viable too, and more importantly nothing I mentioned above is illegal either. This is what people do every day.
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Paphitis » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:48 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
...

I never said it was easy, Even setting up a business employing 10 people is not easy but plenty of people have done it without any capital.


It’s a gamble and most don’t succeed.

UK business start-up rates are increasing, but research still suggests that more than half of all start-ups don’t last beyond five years.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/bu ... vival.html


And to explain further...

There are 10 not so wealthy investors with 2 million in wealth average who borrow 1.6 million each on average for a 10% share in the Group of Companies they will set up operating under the 1 (yes 1) business name.

So these companies have 16 mill and they borrow another 12.8 mill = 28.8 mill

And they start going shopping but 2 years later things don't go too well.

Well as long as these Partners keep paying the Banks for their Equity loans, the Banks are happy. But the reality is this, it is the Business paying these loans to the partners.

The 1.6 mill that each puts in, is entered against the Business they have funded as a LOAN at x% interest. Yes, they even can make a PROFIT. And when business is good, they can reduce the amount of tax they have to pay because the businesses, owned by individuals actually owes those individuals money which is an expence which can be written off along with all the other expenses and depreciation.

If the business goes under, the Partners are able to suspend these payments or keep taking them in order to cover their personal investment. If they don't make it, they go in as CREDITORS along with the Banks. So when everything is sold off, they too get part of the proceeds.

So out of the 1.6 million they put in, they potentially only lose a part of the initial investment or even a tiny fraction. The walk away almost Scott free. In actual fact, there are unlimited permutations and ways in which businesses and their owners can structure themselves.

That is the beauty of Capitalism. And people who do these schemes provide the average jobs to keep others averagely happy and content! :D
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Re: BBC – THE SUPER-RICH ..... and us!

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:00 pm

You usually talk a lot of sense, but on this thread what you are saying is just pie in the sky. The idea that poverty is a lifestyle choice and absolutely anybody can start a business and get rich flies in the face of common sense and hard reality. I have known plenty of people who have started businesses and none have ever succeeded. I have run two small businesses in my life and I had to throw in the towel on both occasions. Please don't say it was because I didn't work hard enough because I know how much effort I put in. I have been self-employed since I came to Cyprus in the summer of 2004 and that is a kind of small business, so that has been nearly sixteen years, but all I can say is that it is tough and barely worth the effort. In my experience, wherever there is a genuine free market there is cutthroat competition and the market sees to it that you can't earn much. Where businesses make a lot of money, it is because they can skew the market with monopolies or cartels, or sell things at inflated prices to the public sector by having the right contacts inside and using bribery. At the real top of the food chain, the ruling elites have whole national armies at their disposal and can even have whole countries taken over if it suits their business interests.

Anyway, on other threads you have said the reason you hate the EU is for what it has done to Greece and you talk about the crippling and humiliating poverty that you have witnessed there. Well, if you are going to remain true to the view that you are espousing here, you should be criticising all these lazy, good for nothing Greeks who have chosen poverty as a life style when everybody can easily open a business that is guaranteed to make them millionaires, when instead all they do is wallow in self-pity and jealousy in the face of others who make the effort to get out of poverty. That is obviously nonsense, but that it what you are telling us here.

Well, I'd love to stop and chat more, but I need to get back to running my microbusiness. Please, whatever you do, do not say that I do not work hard. I know how untrue that assertion would be.
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