Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexis]

I have recently posted a number of questions which were kindly answered by a number of Greek Cypriots. The most fundemental questions for TC's are as Follows:

It's good to ask questions. So I'll tryan answer yours as best I can from my perspective.

1- There are still supporters of Eoka is the Gov. of South Cyprus can a deal really be made with such people, or is there a need for a new generation of politicians to come to the fore?

Probably not, I would say there is definitely a need for new politicians to emerge. But it is worth mentioning that EOKA as an organisation does not actually exist at this moment. Certainly if it does it is an underground movement outside of the public eye which probably has few links if any with the previous organisation. So in conclusion, it is not because there are EOKA supporters that this is necessary. There are plenty of young GCs who support what EOKA did in the 1950s, it is the fact that many of the current politicians were active during the inter-communal conflict that arose after EOKA were disbanded that causes the problems imo.

2- Do Greek Cypriots still support Enosis and do they regard EOKA fighters as national heroes?

I think Enosis is dying and has been for the last 40 years. That does not mean that there is absolutely no support for it. There will always be Greek nationalists among the population and there is still deep empathy with Greece, but to want to be a part of Greece after everything that has happened, I don't think that sits too high in many GCs minds.
With regards EOKA fighters we have to be careful what we are talking about here. In most GCs minds there is a distinction between the EOKA fighters prior to Independence and those that took part in the inter-communal conflict later on, whether this was the reality or not. The fact remains though that the targets of EOKA prior to independence were for the most part non-civilian (again this is not 100% true but it is pointless to argue that EOKA ever intended to harm civilians deliberately when this was clearly not the case. Although it certainly intimidated many civilians as did the British troops and security forces), whilst during the inter-communal conflict targets were most certainly civilians especially with regards the hostage-taking that took place. So, are the EOKA fighters heroes? certainly most GCs regard those who fought in the period 1955-59 as heroes, and in fact there is a memorial to those that died in Nicosia. To construe this as being offensive to TCs is imo a little unfair given that the celebration is the struggle against Britain rather than TCs. We need to recognise though that many of those associated with EOKA in the 1950s went on to commit atrocities against TCs.

3- If Enosis could be acheived peacefully today would you support it?

I think it has, through the EU, and I sincerely hope we also get Enosis with Turkey eventually through the same mechanism.

4- If Cyprus was reunited is there ever a chance either today or in the future that rival nationalist tendancies would cause a breakdown in law and order?

There's always that chance, but a fair and comprehensive solution which aims to unify the country would go a long way to preventing this. It's about trust, but then again it's either this or partition together with all that this would entail:

1) Continued Hatred between the communities
2) Continued massive expenditure on military
3) Continued Military presence + possibly UN
4) Severed links between the communities
5) Unfulfilled potential with regards the economy (of either state)
6) Irreversible loss of heritage (again for both sides)
7) Two football teams going nowhere

Perhaps you might argue that much of this hatred would come from the GC side, but that would hardly be surprising given that partition for the GCs was always the equivalent of Enosis for the TCs.
As you have probably worked out, I am strongly against partition.

[Viewpoint]

Alexis its great to say you are against partition but when you consider that when we had the chance to rule oursleves we made a big mess of it and to date we have been unable to solve zilch.

Do you want to put your all Cypriots at risk by going loggaheads and forming a union which was not either desired or believed in. You could have the worst solution but if both sides are committed and have the will to make it work they will but even if we hammered out the best solution plan if there is no will then it will breakdown at some stage.

I do not want to put any Cypriot at risk, even if that risk is very low, the heartaches that people lived through for us to find the current formula should not be repeated.

The two communites do not posses the vision, ability or desire to unite we have to come to terms with this as the years go by people on both sides will come to realize this more and more. The few scraps of hope that are put before us from time to time are purely for internal consumption and manipulated by politicians not just our but from other countries. The one time it was out of their control and in the hands of us the people was during the referendum thats why both sides were very active because for a split second the scenerio could have changed and upset their plans, the opportunity was there for us to unite but we all know how that turned out. It was at this stage that I personally realized that neither side has any real desire to unite and the current stalemate will continue for many years to come, because this is the only solution that both sides can tollerate. Goodluck to all Cypriots.

[zan]

Alexis

I think that post was about the most sensible post I have seen to date on this forum. I would like to apologise to you for any offence I have caused you in any of my ranting to others and can only hope that when I say that every thing I wrote was deliberate, that you understand what I mean. This must go some way to show people that even though ideas are sometimes fiercely opposed to each other that they can be discussed in a civil fashion. I don’t hold much hope for us changing the whole board into one gentleman’s club though, so I will apologise in advance if my alter ego gets the better of me once again.

Now, back to discussions.

You listed a few things that will obviously be problems with partition and I agree with you on them but I do think that with the right will, they can be overcome to a certain extent. I don’t know how silly you think my idea of having the capital as a place of excellence and open to both sides is, but I do think that the only thing that is going to have a massive influence on change is business. If we have a city that is the financial and entertainment centre with the type of schools that Mills Chapman is researching into and or universities. A place where like minded and ambitious people from both sides can mix and send their children to school. I can see it as an antidote, to the poison that is feeding the resentment at the moment, that will spread from the centre and eventually engulf the whole island. I think that this will make Mills’ idea easier to implement. I wonder if I could have your views on this?

[zan]

Oh! and we might even get a decent football team out of it!!!!!!!

[Alexis]

VP, Zan, thankyou both for your replies. I'll deal with them one at a time.

VP first:

It was at this stage that I personally realized that neither side has any real desire to unite and the current stalemate will continue for many years to come, because this is the only solution that both sides can tollerate. Goodluck to all Cypriots.

There's not much I can say to your reply which I haven't said already.
On the whole (as with previous occasions) I agree with your analysis of the Cypriot psyche, but disagree that we should just up and allow partition. The fact remains that both sides have adopted the 'them and us' mentality and I simply cannot see how partition is going to help get us out of that mentality and move on. We've had de facto partition for 31 and nothing has changed, our prejudices have simply grown. In fact it is only through steps towards union (e.g. the opening of the borders) that has lead to any kind of engagement between the two communities in Cyprus.

Now Zan:

I think that post was about the most sensible post I have seen to date on this forum. I would like to apologise to you for any offence I have caused you in any of my ranting to others and can only hope that when I say that every thing I wrote was deliberate, that you understand what I mean. This must go some way to show people that even though ideas are sometimes fiercely opposed to each other that they can be discussed in a civil fashion. I don’t hold much hope for us changing the whole board into one gentleman’s club though, so I will apologise in advance if my alter ego gets the better of me once again.

No offence taken. I don't see the point in contributing to a forum like this if I'm going to feel offended by others points of view.

You listed a few things that will obviously be problems with partition and I agree with you on them but I do think that with the right will, they can be overcome to a certain extent. I don’t know how silly you think my idea of having the capital as a place of excellence and open to both sides is, but I do think that the only thing that is going to have a massive influence on change is business. If we have a city that is the financial and entertainment centre with the type of schools that Mills Chapman is researching into and or universities. A place where like minded and ambitious people from both sides can mix and send their children to school. I can see it as an antidote to the poison that is feeding the resentment at the moment that will spread from the centre and eventually engulf the whole island. I think that this will make Mills’ idea easier to implement. I wonder if I could have your views on this?

Of course this is a great idea, and possibly a contender for getting out of the deadlock that we find ourselves in. The crunch points are the two extremes - recognition of a separate TC state which bars all GCs and right of return of all GC refugees to their original homes in a unitary state dominated by GCs - as long as we realise that neither of the two will happen I think we can move on.

I still think though that the final objective should be a unified federation which entertains complete freedom for all. I recognise that this is a scary proposal for many TCs, and that this means you will have to live alongside GCs with all the memories that entails. But you must also see that the GCs have the constant threat of the Turkish Army descending on Cyprus with full air superiority at any time and that we have to live with this under all eventualities (bar the THK disbanding!). People say that this is unlikely to happen in the present day and age and I agree, but the same argument holds for a repeat of the 1960s. The threat of the two will always be there because they can happen and did happen in the past but they will help counter-act each other.

At the end of the day you are correct, business is what will change things. Both communities want to prosper, and if we get down to the personal level all anyone wants is to create a good financial future for their family. The point is that Cyprus was a poor country in the 1960s and that provided impetus for nationalism and conflict, now it's a much richer one, and has the potential to be even richer, especially if it unites. We ought to be concentrating more on attracting foreign investment and securing our future. The South for instance is doing well for now through tourism and I'm sure that the North could do well on its own through tourism. Without the foreign investment, when the cycle of tourism declines the normal people find that they can no longer afford anything and become poorer again, this is already happening in the South. The world is becoming an increasingly competitive place and in order to sustain our economy we need to move forward. The biggest step we could take is unifying the country and showing the world that we are a stable place to invest their money in.

[pg]

... how can two groups with such differant aspirations and diffent ideas be united. I think that wheras the TC's are seeking resolution the GC's are seeking reperations. ....

Can you give some examples on what different aspirations TCs and GCs have?

And please mention only the future - we have said enough about the past.
Also, let's leave the property issue aside for now.

[zan]

Alexis

Thank you for your reply.

So the only other option is of course the Annan plan in which my idea can work.

I have to disagree on the entire island open to all though because it is not the threat of war that troubles most TCs. In my mind it is the every day struggles that will be the biggest and most dangerous of the problems. Let me put together a possible scenario that keeps repeating it self over and over in my mind.

There will be court cases going on by the tens of thousands.
There will be thousands of disgruntled people on both sides.
Some localised disturbances will occur between neighbours and rivals.
Some small, some big riots will occur.
Government will obviously have to intervene.
Legislation will have to be made to quell the disturbances.
The government will have to pamper to the majority.
The minorities will feel hard done by and create more disturbances.
Deportations of unruly immigrants will begin and will serve to worry the TCs even more.
There will be miscarriages of justice in who is really an immigrant.
More tension, more arrests.
Villages will start to become either GC or TC again.
TC villages will feel that not enough attention and money is given to them.
Unemployment will be greater in the TC villages and then the full TC nightmare is too much to imagine and we disappear in a puff of smoke.

Even if this sounds silly to some it is a fear as real as my phobia of heights.

Recognition of the TRNC will overcome all this IMO. The two sides can get on with their economic futures and use the financial centre to set a precedent. I have no doubt in my mind that the city will be the one to grow and take over the two sides. Of course this will not allow the GCs to return to their homes but the compensation they receive will be a massive boost to the finances of the city if it is invested wisely.

[serkan]

[quote]serkan wrote:
... how can two groups with such differant aspirations and diffent ideas be united. I think that wheras the TC's are seeking resolution the GC's are seeking reperations. ....


Can you give some examples on what different aspirations TCs and GCs have?

And please mention only the future - we have said enough about the past.
Also, let's leave the property issue aside for now.[/quote]

In my opinion the aspiration of Turkish Cypriots is centred on a single factor: economic development. Some people have tried to argue that the groundswell of public support in Northern Cyprus for reunification has been the urge to reunite the one true cypriot community, this is simply not the case. People want jobs, money and better standards of living, The Turkish Cypriot economy has reached its height at the moment and with a growing population and the burden of embargoes the state would most definately become de-facto bankrupt without the huge aid package which comes from Turkey. This is also why Papadopoulas is so against lifting any embargoes on the North, not because it will lead to recognition but because it will remove the only incentive that leads the Turks to want to negotiate.

On the other hand the Greeks have had substantial development in a number of fields eg telecomunications, turism and it's sea ports. 1974 still represents a defeat for the Greek Cypriot community, the only perceived way to remove the pain of this defeat is to regain what was lost, that is why the property issue cannot be set aside because together with the right to return for greek refugee's the pillers of the Greek stance on the Cyprus issue is not the repatriation of Turks but the return of property and peoples right to return to their own lands.

Thus the agenda of the north is not a matter of Cypriotness but the economic development of the Turkish community. To the same extent the South does not attempt to re-unite the island for the cypriot people they merely intend to regain what was lost by the Greek community, Both sides aspirations are not Cypriot but they are Turkish and Greek respectively.

[pg]

In my opinion the aspiration of Turkish Cypriots is centred on a single factor: economic development. Some people have tried to argue that the groundswell of public support in Northern Cyprus for reunification has been the urge to reunite the one true cypriot community, this is simply not the case. People want jobs, money and better standards of living, The Turkish Cypriot economy has reached its height at the moment and with a growing population and the burden of embargoes the state would most definately become de-facto bankrupt without the huge aid package which comes from Turkey. This is also why Papadopoulas is so against lifting any embargoes on the North, not because it will lead to recognition but because it will remove the only incentive that leads the Turks to want to negotiate.

On the other hand the Greeks have had substantial development in a number of fields eg telecomunications, turism and it's sea ports. 1974 still represents a defeat for the Greek Cypriot community, the only perceived way to remove the pain of this defeat is to regain what was lost, that is why the property issue cannot be set aside because together with the right to return for greek refugee's the pillers of the Greek stance on the Cyprus issue is not the repatriation of Turks but the return of property and peoples right to return to their own lands.

Thus the agenda of the north is not a matter of Cypriotness but the economic development of the Turkish community. To the same extent the South does not attempt to re-unite the island for the cypriot people they merely intend to regain what was lost by the Greek community, Both sides aspirations are not Cypriot but they are Turkish and Greek respectively.

In short, personal, or familiy economic development is the most important issue for TCs. However, note that the same goes for most GCs - they want their property back since loosing it made them poor...

Now, how do we make both TCs and GCs are economically fortunate as possible? Personally I do not think a small island like this can support two goverments, a handfull of parlaments, etc, etc...., and really, how are 150,000 people going to run a European state with all obligations that includes. Even with 800,000 is so few that it is difficult to do it... With 150,000 the goverment employees will be more than the rest of the tax payers...

In additon, I beleive the TC side needs to be particularly honest about the economic side of the property issue.

[pg]

Alexis

Thank you for your reply.

So the only other option is of course the Annan plan in which my idea can work.

I have to disagree on the entire island open to all though because it is not the threat of war that troubles most TCs. In my mind it is the every day struggles that will be the biggest and most dangerous of the problems. Let me put together a possible scenario that keeps repeating it self over and over in my mind.

There will be court cases going on by the tens of thousands.
There will be thousands of disgruntled people on both sides.
Some localised disturbances will occur between neighbours and rivals.
Some small, some big riots will occur.
Government will obviously have to intervene.
Legislation will have to be made to quell the disturbances.
The government will have to pamper to the majority.
The minorities will feel hard done by and create more disturbances.
Deportations of unruly immigrants will begin and will serve to worry the TCs even more.
There will be miscarriages of justice in who is really an immigrant.
More tension, more arrests.
Villages will start to become either GC or TC again.
TC villages will feel that not enough attention and money is given to them.
Unemployment will be greater in the TC villages and then the full TC nightmare is too much to imagine and we disappear in a puff of smoke.

Even if this sounds silly to some it is a fear as real as my phobia of heights.

Note that even today any Cypriot that wants to pop over the green line and hit someone on the nose they can easily do so tonight. However, the do not.

Your nightmare above seems to start with having many people not satisfied with the economic terms of the property issue.