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Visa free travel for Turks to EU

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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby Jerry » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:58 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Jerry wrote:Travel advice from UK Government.

British and other foreign nationals who have entered Cyprus through the north are considered by the Government of the Republic of Cyprus to have entered Cyprus through an illegal port of entry. The Government of the Republic of Cyprus reserves the right to fine you for illegal entry if you cross into the south, but in practice, the current policy is not to do so.


https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advic ... d-security


Yes I note that it does not warn people that they may not be allowed to cross, only that they may face a fine having crossed. Not the same thing. Can the RoC stop people crossing, outside of the rules for such laid down in the green line regulations ? My understanding is they can not but I could be wrong. Can they fine people who have crossed according to their own national laws ? I think in theory yes they can but in practice they know they can not do so to EU citizens without causing a lot of trouble between themselves and the EU, Can they do so with non EU citizens, again in theory they can and perhaps with less trouble than if they did so with EU citizens, but there would then still be issues with applying laws arbitrarily or applying them only to some nationalities and not others, which is problematic in itself. So I think they maintain the law that would allow them in theory to fine people that have crossed after entering via the north but in practice do not and have not implemented this law since joining the EU because to do so would actually be more trouble than its worth.


The law is already applied in an arbitrary manner, in practice EU citizens know they can cross over without problems but illegal settlers know they cannot, I expect the same would apply to mainland Turks. Presumably not all settlers have "trnc" passports so how would the ROC tell the difference between a mainland tourist and a settler. Besides, why should the ROC allow entry to citizens from a state that doesn't recognise it? "Sorry, we don't recognise your passport" could be a valid reason for refusal.
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby erolz66 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:12 am

Jerry wrote:The law is already applied in an arbitrary manner, in practice EU citizens know they can cross over without problems but illegal settlers know they cannot, I expect the same would apply to mainland Turks. Presumably not all settlers have "trnc" passports so how would the ROC tell the difference between a mainland tourist and a settler. Besides, why should the ROC allow entry to citizens from a state that doesn't recognise it? "Sorry, we don't recognise your passport" could be a valid reason for refusal.


The law is not applied at all as far as I understand it and has not been since EU accession. Do you know of anyone of any category, that has been prosecuted under this law since the RoC joined the EU ?

Illegal settlers - as far as they are from countries that require a visa to enter the RoC, can not cross, unless they have said visa - that is the whole point. They can not cross because they do not have the required visa. It is not the case that they choose not to cross because if they do so they will be prosecuted for having entered the RoC via an illegal port of entry. They do not cross because the RoC does not let them them cross, physically, exactly as per the Green Line regulations, agreed between the the RoC and the EU. Not just Turkish settlers, this is true of any settler than requires a visa to enter the RoC. A citizen of Pakistan that resides in north Cyprus for example can not cross the Green line from north to south unless they have a visa. If such a person applied for such a visa from the RoC they would not get one if they answer honestly where they reside - which is part of the visa process. Sure they could lie but that is a big risk. A Pakistani might get away with such a lie. A Turkish citizen you can be sure will be 'vetted' thoroughly to ensure they have not lied to the question 'do you reside in north cyprus' and I believe the RoC can refuse to give a visa merely if they suspect the person has lied about where they reside.

I am 95% sure that I know of a Turkish citizen, that lives in Turkey, that got a RoC tourist visa and then was able to enter Cyprus via the north and cross the Green line (as the Green line regulations say he should be able to) and do so without being prosecuted for having entered Cyprus via an illegal port of entry once he had crossed (as in theory the RoC could do under national law but in practice do not do). Not 100% sure - I will have to do some 'checking' but am pretty sure. Getting the visa was not an easy task at all, it was in fact very very difficult process but once they had it and for the life of it, they then could cross the Green line from north to south, as per the Green line regulations agreed with the EU. In theory they could also then have been arrested once they had crossed and prosecuted for illegal port o entry under national law, but that would open up a can of worms for the RoC legally, given that they systematically do not do that for other people that have also crossed the Green line in accordance with the rules agreed with the EU. They could as I understand it bring a strong case (eventually to the ECHR if necessary) that such prosecution of them purely because they were Turkish was unfair discrimination based on nationality.

As to how does the RoC know that he was a tourist and not a settler, they know because part of the process of obtaining the tourist visa involves proving to the RoC that you are not an illegal settler living in the north. If you can not prove that they do not give you the visa and you can not cross the green line from north to south. It is the granting or not granting of the visa that is the effective control that the RoC has, as I understand it. Just as I had to prove that I was not a settler but a 'real' Cypriot in the eyes of the RoC the first time I wanted to cross the Green line using my North Cyprus issued kimlik card (ID Card), as opposed to my British passport. I can now cross with either, but only because I have proved that I am the son of a Cypriot according to the RoC and not the son of a settler and that is now on the border 'computer'. In practice I tend to use my kimlik card on the north side of the crossing and my UK passport on the South but only because it is easier and quicker. I could and have in the past used my UK passport on both sides, as I have done with my kimlik card (having to the first time I used this on the RoC side also prove that I was a 'Cypriot' according to RoC law).
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby Sotos » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:34 am

EU laws take precedence if there is a conflict between the EU law and the local law... but in this case there is no conflict. Yes, Cyprus gave up certain powers to EU, but remember that we joined voluntarily and we can exit any time we want. We are also part of the decision making in EU. We are not EU's slaves. it is more like a marriage... if at any point they become abusive and they do not take into consideration our needs then we will get a divorce. The Green Line is not an external border, and the regulation was made to facilitate specific things regarding mainly the TCs. It seems to me you refuse to accept that RoC does certain things out of goodwill for the TCs and you assume that everything RoC does it does it because it is obligated or forced to. You are very wrong on this.

Yes I note that it does not warn people that they may not be allowed to cross, only that they may face a fine having crossed. Not the same thing. Can the RoC stop people crossing, outside of the rules for such laid down in the green line regulations ?


If I got my boat and landed on some French beach would I be sentenced to prison because of this or would I be thrown in the sea? Since I am not a terrorist or criminal and since I have the right to travel to France anyway then most probably I would just be fined. But the fine can be such that would essentially be equivalent to "stop people crossing". If your NZ partner knew that she would have to pay a €500 fine would she still cross? RoC can implement a standard fine for this violation which could increase for repeat offenders.
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby B25 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:21 pm

Sotos, it's just fortunate for the Turks and others that the RoC politicians are all pussies and deserve what we get.

Green line, white line and f colour line regulation was a give away on our part and we will end up paying for it. Until such time that we grow some balls and stand up to the EU and other MFs then we are doomed to be slaves of the EU. Don't kid yourself about divorces, you know it won't happen as we are all just 'yes' men to foreign powers.

Once this island opens its doors to all and sundry, we are finished and that's the direction we are heading.

God help us, because no other MF will.
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby Jerry » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:26 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Jerry wrote:The law is already applied in an arbitrary manner, in practice EU citizens know they can cross over without problems but illegal settlers know they cannot, I expect the same would apply to mainland Turks. Presumably not all settlers have "trnc" passports so how would the ROC tell the difference between a mainland tourist and a settler. Besides, why should the ROC allow entry to citizens from a state that doesn't recognise it? "Sorry, we don't recognise your passport" could be a valid reason for refusal.


The law is not applied at all as far as I understand it and has not been since EU accession. Do you know of anyone of any category, that has been prosecuted under this law since the RoC joined the EU ?

Illegal settlers - as far as they are from countries that require a visa to enter the RoC, can not cross, unless they have said visa - that is the whole point. They can not cross because they do not have the required visa. It is not the case that they choose not to cross because if they do so they will be prosecuted for having entered the RoC via an illegal port of entry. They do not cross because the RoC does not let them them cross, physically, exactly as per the Green Line regulations, agreed between the the RoC and the EU. Not just Turkish settlers, this is true of any settler than requires a visa to enter the RoC. A citizen of Pakistan that resides in north Cyprus for example can not cross the Green line from north to south unless they have a visa. If such a person applied for such a visa from the RoC they would not get one if they answer honestly where they reside - which is part of the visa process. Sure they could lie but that is a big risk. A Pakistani might get away with such a lie. A Turkish citizen you can be sure will be 'vetted' thoroughly to ensure they have not lied to the question 'do you reside in north cyprus' and I believe the RoC can refuse to give a visa merely if they suspect the person has lied about where they reside.

I am 95% sure that I know of a Turkish citizen, that lives in Turkey, that got a RoC tourist visa and then was able to enter Cyprus via the north and cross the Green line (as the Green line regulations say he should be able to) and do so without being prosecuted for having entered Cyprus via an illegal port of entry once he had crossed (as in theory the RoC could do under national law but in practice do not do). Not 100% sure - I will have to do some 'checking' but am pretty sure. Getting the visa was not an easy task at all, it was in fact very very difficult process but once they had it and for the life of it, they then could cross the Green line from north to south, as per the Green line regulations agreed with the EU. In theory they could also then have been arrested once they had crossed and prosecuted for illegal port o entry under national law, but that would open up a can of worms for the RoC legally, given that they systematically do not do that for other people that have also crossed the Green line in accordance with the rules agreed with the EU. They could as I understand it bring a strong case (eventually to the ECHR if necessary) that such prosecution of them purely because they were Turkish was unfair discrimination based on nationality.

As to how does the RoC know that he was a tourist and not a settler, they know because part of the process of obtaining the tourist visa involves proving to the RoC that you are not an illegal settler living in the north. If you can not prove that they do not give you the visa and you can not cross the green line from north to south. It is the granting or not granting of the visa that is the effective control that the RoC has, as I understand it. Just as I had to prove that I was not a settler but a 'real' Cypriot in the eyes of the RoC the first time I wanted to cross the Green line using my North Cyprus issued kimlik card (ID Card), as opposed to my British passport. I can now cross with either, but only because I have proved that I am the son of a Cypriot according to the RoC and not the son of a settler and that is now on the border 'computer'. In practice I tend to use my kimlik card on the north side of the crossing and my UK passport on the South but only because it is easier and quicker. I could and have in the past used my UK passport on both sides, as I have done with my kimlik card (having to the first time I used this on the RoC side also prove that I was a 'Cypriot' according to RoC law).


Make up your mind Erol, stop splitting hairs. You said that the law is not applied since joining the EU and then you say "and I believe the RoC can refuse to give a visa merely if they suspect the person has lied about where they reside." "suspect" that sounds arbitrary to me. No doubt when visa free travel comes into effect holders of Turkish passports will be assumed to have entered Cyprus illegally and may be told arbitrarily that they can't enter the unoccupied area.
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby erolz66 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:56 pm

Jerry wrote:No doubt when visa free travel comes into effect holders of Turkish passports will be assumed to have entered Cyprus illegally and may be told arbitrarily that they can't enter the unoccupied area.


What currently allows the RoC to not let Turkish citizens without a visa cross the Green line and still be totally compatible and in agreement with the Green Line regulations, is that they do not have a visa. Be they a Turkish citizen who resides in Turkey, or a 'settler' that the RoC sees as a Turkish citizen. No visa - no entry - exactly as per the Green Line regulations. If the situation changes such that Turkish citizens do need a visa at all to enter the RoC, then this 'lack of visa' will no longer be able to be used as the basis to stop them crossing, that is totally compatible with the Green Line regulations.

Maybe the RoC would be able to get the Green line regulations changed in this case, such they could stop a third country national, with a valid passport and that does not require a visa from crossing - but that is not how the Green Line regulations are currently. Maybe they could use some other national RoC law to stop such people crossing at all and such national law would take priority over the Green Line regulations. Personally I doubt they can do this but I could be wrong. Maybe they would accept that they can not stop such people from crossing under the Green Line regulations themselves but will decide if such people do cross they will then prosecute them under the RoC law re entering Cyprus via an illegal port of entry, even though they have essentially already agreed to NOT use this law as far as EU citizens go, as a 'deterrent' to effectively stop them wanting to cross in the first place. Maybe that will be able to do this without legal challenge I don't know.

What does seem pretty clear to me at least, having read the Green Line regulations, is that Turkish Citizens needing a visa or not does make a difference to if such can cross, according only to the Green line regulations as they exist today.
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby Sotos » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:26 pm

Personally I have doubts that they will offer visa free travel to Turkey in June. The EU should look for alternatives.
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby tsukoui » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:29 pm

Shouldn't that read Visa free travel for Turks to Hertfordshire
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Wed May 11, 2016 10:50 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Turks will never get visa free travel throughout Europe.


Totally true! :lol:

The President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, announced on Wednesday that he has stopped procedures involving the liberalisation of visas for Turkish nationals.


http://a1.am/en/2016/05/11/schulz-block ... s-visa-bid
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Re: Visa free travel for Turks to EU

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:35 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Turks will never get visa free travel throughout Europe.


Totally true! :lol:

The President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, announced on Wednesday that he has stopped procedures involving the liberalisation of visas for Turkish nationals.


http://a1.am/en/2016/05/11/schulz-block ... s-visa-bid


:lol:

Now, even their politicians are being banned from entering the EU:

Turkey and Holland engaged in an explosive diplomatic row on Saturday, with the Dutch government refusing to allow the Turkish foreign minister into the country and Turkey’s president in turn branding the Dutch as “Nazi remnants”.

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan reacted furiously to Holland's decision prevent his foreign minister from entering the country in order to hold a pro-government rally with Turkish citizens living in Rotterdam.

When Mr Cavusoglu insisted that he was planning on coming anyway, Holland's cabinet issued made an emergency decision to block his flight from landing.

:lol:

Geert Wilders: "I say to all Turks in the Netherlands that agree with Erdoğan: go to Turkey and never come back."

:lol:

Turkey has accused the EU of failing to uphold its side of a deal in which Turkey would stop refugees and migrants from the Middle East heading into Europe in return for the EU granting visa-free travel to Turkish citizens.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... escalates/
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