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EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby Lordo » Fri May 20, 2016 8:37 am

this is what you call the oracle world of make-believe. she gives a new meaning to the word interstellar.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby Kikapu » Fri May 20, 2016 10:46 am

erolz66 wrote:http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-1628_en.htm

I am posting this latest news for those who may actually have an interest in what is really happening. Of course this thread will be hijacked by GiG who will try and twist reality to suit her agenda just as she has all previous such announcements from the EU and will then descend into the usual mess.

Anyway

My overview of the above EU Commission press release.

The Commission has decided to make it's proposals ahead of the 'three month deadline' set in the Council's implementing decision of the 12 Feb
They are not proposing introduction of border controls at the Schengen internal borders of Greece, (namely airports and ports.)
They are proposing that those Schengen members that had unilaterally re imposed boarder controls at internal Schengen boarders (Germany, Austria, Sweden, Denmark and the associated country Norway) and could only do so unilaterally for a period of three months, be allowed to continue such controls for a period of 6 more months.
They are proposing this on the basis that "not all of the serious deficiencies identified in Greece's external border management have been adequately and comprehensively addressed within the three months' time limit laid down in the Schengen Borders Code."


Erolz, surely the above proposals by the EU Commission is based on the assumption that the EU-Turkey agreements will be acceptable to all sides and that Turkey will in fact fulfill the 72 requirements to their laws demanded by the EU. However, Turkey at this point is refusing to budge on 5 of the 72 demands made by the EU, and if Turkey does not budge and the EU does not accept what Turkey is proposing, surely the above EU Commission's proposals will also needs to change, no?
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby erolz66 » Fri May 20, 2016 11:55 am

Kikapu wrote:
Erolz, surely the above proposals by the EU Commission is based on the assumption that the EU-Turkey agreements will be acceptable to all sides and that Turkey will in fact fulfill the 72 requirements to their laws demanded by the EU. However, Turkey at this point is refusing to budge on 5 of the 72 demands made by the EU, and if Turkey does not budge and the EU does not accept what Turkey is proposing, surely the above EU Commission's proposals will also needs to change, no?


What this proposal (now adopted by the council btw) was about, was if the boarder controls Schengen countries had unilaterally imposed would be extended by the EU past the point at which they could be done so unilaterally and if any extra boarder controls were to be imposed as well. The only legal mechanism by which the EU could do this (extend the unilateral controls of individual members or introduce new controls), is if an evaluation report on a member state found 'serious deficiencies' in the implementing of Schengen laws AND if that member failed to address these within the three months from the council issuing an 'implementing decision' laying out what needs to be fixed by the member state concerned. This is exactly what has happened. The evaluation report on Greece found 'serious deficiencies'. The Council issued an 'implementing decision' giving Greece three months to rectify the deficiencies. Greece was unable to rectify all of them within the three months and as a result the EU extended by 6 months the boarder controls that originally were put in place unilaterally by various members and decided not to introduce any addition boarder controls. The EU could not have extended these controls without there having been an evaluation report that found 'serious deficiencies' or if these had of been dealt with within the three months time limit. Nor would the individual members been able to unilaterally extend such controls.

None of this is directly linked to the EU - Turkey deal. This use of the existing Schengen laws re evaluation and the EU approving temporary boarder controls is ONE of the measures that the EU has taken to try and manage the migration crisis. The EU - Turkey deal is ANOTHER measure they have taken. There are lots of other measures as well (involving NATO, boosting Frontex, aid and return deals with other non EU states and much else besides). The use of Schengen laws to allow continuing boarder controls within the Schengen area is not legally dependent on the EU - Turkey deal. It is not the case that the EU can only extend such controls if the EU - Turkey deal goes ahead.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby Kikapu » Fri May 20, 2016 12:07 pm

erolz66 wrote:None of this is directly linked to the EU - Turkey deal. This use of the existing Schengen laws re evaluation and the EU approving temporary boarder controls is ONE of the measures that the EU has taken to try and manage the migration crisis. The EU - Turkey deal is ANOTHER measure they have taken. There are lots of other measures as well (involving NATO, boosting Frontex, aid and return deals with other non EU states and much else besides). The use of Schengen laws to allow continuing boarder controls within the Schengen area is not legally dependent on the EU - Turkey deal. It is not the case that the EU can only extend such controls if the EU - Turkey deal goes ahead.


But it is directly linked to the refugee crisis involving Turkey, where vast majority of them are in fact coming from Turkey to Greece, and should the EU-Turkey deal fail, then one can assume that Greece once again will be the landing port for the refugees coming from Turkey, in which case, I believe more Schengen countries will adopt tighter border controls, despite what the EU Commission rulings on their proposals are, that there will be a time limit of 6 months for those Schengen countries to bring down their tight border controls.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby erolz66 » Fri May 20, 2016 12:27 pm

Kikapu wrote: But it is directly linked to the refugee crisis involving Turkey, where vast majority of them are in fact coming from Turkey to Greece, and should the EU-Turkey deal fail, then one can assume that Greece once again will be the landing port for the refugees coming from Turkey, in which case, I believe more Schengen countries will adopt tighter border controls, despite what the EU Commission rulings on their proposals are, that there will be a time limit of 6 months for those Schengen countries to bring down their tight border controls.


The routes from Greece to other EU countries have been effectively shut down for the next 6 months by the extensions granted by the EU. If 100 migrants arrive in Greece or 100,000, there is no means for them to get from Greece to other EU countries, as there was before the unilateral imposition of such controls that have now been extended by the EU for another 6 months.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby supporttheunderdog » Fri May 20, 2016 1:53 pm

Hi Kikapu

This is what I commented to RW

...
As the BBC travelogue/documentary showed, in an interview with some who had used the Aegean route, it was popular because it was so uncontrolled with lack of any sort of passport or similar border control. Once in Greece the arrivals could get nearly anywhere in the Schengen Zone. That stopped.
Firstly under the influence of the EU and by implementing many of the 50 recommendations the border is now not so open. People are being stopped and checked and held while being checked.

Secondly the Northern borders, on the routes to the rich north, have been shut. That leaves the irregular migrants in Greece trapped.
Beyond that other borders are now shut. I suspect that since they did not want to go to Greece as a destination and with less hope of getting where they want to go many have changed plans. The news they might be sent back to Turkey might also act as discouragement: why spend thousands to get sent back to the start point? In general terms the route is now less attractive.
....
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri May 20, 2016 11:46 pm

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:The EU in its wisdom has decided to allow more distant controls. I hope they are effective.


You mean .... the EU has the ultimate say in "allowance" ...... but bears none of the responsibility?

Oh .... what logic! :roll:


Your 'logic' is no different from

A court has the ultimate say in if to fine or lock up someone who fails to pay their taxes, therefore the court bears responsibility for paying that persons taxes.

That is not logic - that is blatant distortion of reality to suit ones needs. Nothing new there then.


You are the expert on distortion. Clueless on even drawing up an analogy.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Fri May 20, 2016 11:53 pm

Yes, Greece famously has the longest coastline in the EU.

It stands to reason they will have the greatest number of illegal sea entrants. Are migrants fools?

- And that's without even factoring in Greece's proximity to crisis-creating, awful-neighbour Turkey.

And yet, this is ignored and suppressed in the preference to branding Greece as somehow 'deficient' by mendacious Greek-haters.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby erolz66 » Sat May 21, 2016 5:36 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Yes, Greece famously has the longest coastline in the EU.

It stands to reason they will have the greatest number of illegal sea entrants. Are migrants fools?

- And that's without even factoring in Greece's proximity to crisis-creating, awful-neighbour Turkey.

And yet, this is ignored and suppressed in the preference to branding Greece as somehow 'deficient' by mendacious Greek-haters.


As I have said many times already an argument that any country in Greece's situation would have also been found to be seriously neglecting it's obligations, would be a rational argument. Just denying that the EU concluded Greece was seriously neglecting its obligations, when the EU did conclude this, which is what you have been doing for over four months now, is not rational argument - it is denial of reality.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sat May 21, 2016 9:45 am

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Yes, Greece famously has the longest coastline in the EU.

It stands to reason they will have the greatest number of illegal sea entrants. Are migrants fools?

- And that's without even factoring in Greece's proximity to crisis-creating, awful-neighbour Turkey.

And yet, this is ignored and suppressed in the preference to branding Greece as somehow 'deficient' by mendacious Greek-haters.


As I have said many times already an argument that any country in Greece's situation would have also been found to be seriously neglecting it's obligations, would be a rational argument. Just denying that the EU concluded Greece was seriously neglecting its obligations, when the EU did conclude this, which is what you have been doing for over four months now, is not rational argument - it is denial of reality.


No, "reality" is what is happening not how it is misinterpreted or portrayed by choice of erroneous or politically motivated rhetoric. You choose to brand a lie that "Greece is deficient" because it suits you to believe such a lie even when you KNOW that others were managing the EU external borders - but I see you have now finally turned to accepting that other Agencies are being "boosted" (that means you finally accept they were deficient). These were the agencies that had a specific role to manage the EU external border. Why was Frontex there these last several years if not to manage the EU's (joint) External Border? Greece has many general roles as does every other sovereign country - the problem being evaluated was the EU external border - not Greece's day-to-day sovereign roles (which nevertheless had been cut by the EU's financial policies). And the long-term solution, which I had extrapolated for you from the material you chose to ignore - which was to bolster JOINT EU management, has finally now been shown to be helping.

Your stance has softened under the weight of the evidence that only the passage of these last few months could have done, so I'll give you that. But even if now you at least dare mention the migrants arriving illegally from Turkey, you are still pretty resistant to the truth/reality of how enormous that negative contribution to the management of the EU's external border has been.
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