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EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sat May 21, 2016 10:14 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:Yes, Greece famously has the longest coastline in the EU.

It stands to reason they will have the greatest number of illegal sea entrants. Are migrants fools?

- And that's without even factoring in Greece's proximity to crisis-creating, awful-neighbour Turkey.

And yet, this is ignored and suppressed in the preference to branding Greece as somehow 'deficient' by mendacious Greek-haters.


As I have said many times already an argument that any country in Greece's situation would have also been found to be seriously neglecting it's obligations, would be a rational argument. Just denying that the EU concluded Greece was seriously neglecting its obligations, when the EU did conclude this, which is what you have been doing for over four months now, is not rational argument - it is denial of reality.


No, "reality" is what is happening not how it is misinterpreted or portrayed by choice of erroneous or politically motivated rhetoric. You choose to brand a lie that "Greece is deficient" because it suits you to believe such a lie even when you KNOW that others were managing the EU external borders - but I see you have now finally turned to accepting that other Agencies are being "bolstered" (that means you finally accept they were deficient) and since the long-term solution, which I had extrapolated for you from the material you chose to ignore - which was to bolster JOINT EU management, has been helping.

Your stance has softened under the weight of the evidence that only the passage of these last few months could have done, so I'll give you that. But even if now you at least mention the migrants arriving illegally from Turkey, you are still pretty resistant to the truth/reality of how enormous that negative contribution to the management of the EU's external border has been.


By Gigs twisted logic it must be her beloved EU who are tge Greek haters sunce it is they who used those terms

Migration and Home Affairs Commissioner Dimitris Avramopoulos said: "If we want to maintain our internal area of free movement, we must better manage our external borders. This means that we will only save Schengen by applying Schengen. The Commission continuously monitors the implementation of the Schengen rules in all Schengen Member States. The draft Schengen evaluation report on Greece looks at the management of the external border during an evaluation visit of Member States and Commission experts in Greece in November. The report shows that there are serious deficiencies in the management of the external border in Greece. We know that in the meantime Greece has started undertaking efforts towards rectifying and complying with the Schengen rules. Substantial improvements are needed to ensure the proper reception, registration, relocation or return of migrants in order to bring Schengen functioning back to normal, without internal border controls. This is our ultimate common goal."
The draft report – which is not public – is based on unannounced site visits to the Greek-Turkish land border and to Chios and Samos conducted from 10 to 13 November 2015. The report looks at the presence of police and coast guard personnel on the inspected sites, the efficiency of the identification and registration process, sea border surveillance and cooperation with neighbouring countries. Whilst acknowledging that the Greek authorities are under pressure, the report notably finds that there is no effective identification and registration of irregular migrants and that fingerprints are not being systematically entered into the system and travel documents are not being systematically checked for the authenticity or against crucial security databases, such as SIS, Interpol and national databases. On this basis, the draft report concludes that Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations and that there are serious deficiencies in the carrying out of external border controls that must be overcome and dealt with by the Greek authorities.


That is what the EU has stated in essenetially the same terms in a number of official documents between 27th Jan and tge lated on 12th May.

Thst is the reality Gig,has continued to deny, that it is the EU who have said such things.

That is in my view becuase she is possibly clinically mental ill, with delusions and paranoia, when it comes in particular to Greece. The delusions are that Greece cannot be criticised becuse Greece can never be wrong. The EU, not Erolz or I, disagree. They have found Greece was Seriously neglecting its obligations, they have used the words "seriously deficient".
Erolz and I merely quote them.

It is paranoia beceause it is all part of an anti Greek plot, by Greek haters, ignoring the possibility that there may be foundations of truth in what the EU found and reported, but no, the EU must be wrong as. Greece is to her the epitome of perfection. See point above about delusions.

It is cyclical and self supporting. I think the paranoia and delusions feed off each other.

She Is not open to the view the EU might be right. However unable to deal with the EU she tries to demonise others. Look how on a thread about the Mari explosion she just had to bring in Greece and Grexit to have a go at me.

Sad,,,,what a sad person she is.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby erolz66 » Sat May 21, 2016 12:22 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:No, "reality" is what is happening not how it is misinterpreted or portrayed by choice of erroneous or politically motivated rhetoric. You choose to brand a lie that "Greece is deficient" because it suits you to believe such a lie even when you KNOW that others were managing the EU external borders


I choose to accept that when the EU said in an official evaluation report on Greece that 'Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations', this means the EU has concluded in an official evaluation report that Greece was seriously neglecting it's obligations. You are the one that has spent 4 months and counting trying to deny the plain and simple and obvious reality of what the EU concluded. This is what you do, this is what you have always done here on this forum.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:- but I see you have now finally turned to accepting that other Agencies are being "boosted" (that means you finally accept they were deficient).


Whether those agencies were deficient or not for the things they were responsible for in no way determines if Greece was or was not seriously neglecting it's obligations for the things Greece was responsible for. The logic is just false. It is also a fact that no where has the EU stated that Frontex was 'seriously deficient' or that it was 'seriously neglecting it's obligations'. They did and have explicitly stated that Greece was seriously neglecting it's obligations. Yet you have spent four months and counting trying to argue that the EU did not find that Greece was seriously neglecting it's obligations and that Frontex was. This is exactly the kind of relentless denial of reality that defines your behaviour here on these forums.

GreekIslandGirl wrote: Why was Frontex there these last several years if not to manage the EU's (joint) External Border?


What Frontex's role was and is, is plainly laid out on Frontex's own website. That you simply ignore the reality of what its actual role is, in order to try and deny the reality that the EU found that Greece was seriously neglecting its obligations is just what you do. It is what you have always done here. Deny reality when it does not suit you.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Greece has many general roles as does every other sovereign country - the problem being evaluated was the EU external border - not Greece's day-to-day sovereign roles (which nevertheless had been cut by the EU's financial policies). And the long-term solution, which I had extrapolated for you from the material you chose to ignore - which was to bolster JOINT EU management, has finally now been shown to be helping.


The evaluation report on Greece concluded that [url=http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-174_en.htm]"Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations"[/quote] in regards to the implementing of Schengen acquis. This was true and was shown to you within the first couple of post on this topic to have been true, and you then have spent four months trying to deny the reality of the EU concluding this and you are STILL trying to do so, because that is what you do, that is what you have always done here on this forum. Reality is just irrelevant to you.

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Your stance has softened under the weight of the evidence that only the passage of these last few months could have done, so I'll give you that. But even if now you at least dare mention the migrants arriving illegally from Turkey, you are still pretty resistant to the truth/reality of how enormous that negative contribution to the management of the EU's external border has been.


If you wanted to talk sensibly about Turkey's role in the crisis, then I would be happy to do so but it is you that has chosen to instead try and just deny plain and obvious reality of what the EU concluded with regards to Greece. Given that you can spend four months and continue to deny plain and obvious reality of what the EU has said with regards to Greece, the chances of any sort of rational discussion with you about Turkey is impossible. You have no interest in rational discussion on these forum and never have. This one topic alone shows that rational discussion with you is impossible though there are countless other examples. Your only interest is pushing your distortions of reality to suit your agenda whilst labelling anyone who challenges such distortions as being liars and Greek haters and all the rest. That is what you do , that is what you have always done here on these forums. The evidence for this is almost as undeniable and irrefutable as the evidence that the EU concluded that "Greece was seriously neglecting its obligations" and you will deny both with equal vigour because this is what you do.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sat May 21, 2016 7:33 pm

erolz66 wrote: ...
If you wanted to talk sensibly about Turkey's role in the crisis, then I would be happy to do so ....


This is your standard response. :lol: Apologist!

Either you view Turkey as some elite topic that can only be touched with a gold-covered keyboard creating some precious font or you don't want to reveal how truly sold you are into the Turkish grab-and-keep, might-is-right, destroy and revise history ethos!

I have no interest in volunteering to discuss anything with a knave who twists the truth as professionally as you do.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sat May 21, 2016 10:30 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote: ...
If you wanted to talk sensibly about Turkey's role in the crisis, then I would be happy to do so ....


This is your standard response. :lol: Apologist!

Either you view Turkey as some elite topic that can only be touched with a gold-covered keyboard creating some precious font or you don't want to reveal how truly sold you are into the Turkish grab-and-keep, might-is-right, destroy and revise history ethos!

I have no interest in volunteering to discuss anything with a knave who twists the truth as professionally as you do.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Erolz, This has surely got to be the straw man arguement of strawman arguements where, before you have even expressed a view but simply offered an invitation to discuss she has miscontrued what have not even said to make you an "apologist" .

It really does show that she is incapable of rational debate.

It is also the first time I can recall where simply quoting what the EU has said to be twisting the truth.

As It is , i find that that is a bit rich coming from that particular person, who is trying to twist the truth to avoid the fact that the EU has on a number of occasions between 27th Jan and 12th May described Greece as seriously neglecting its obligations, and/or of being seriously deficient, and/or serious deficiencies, some of which still persist, on the management of the external border by Greece, which as a matter of law is primarily that of Greece. Does she call the EU "Greek haters" or "Turk lovers" because they have saidd such things about Greece, and/or may be paying Billions to Turkey?

It is however typical of her projection, that she projects on to you what she does, in particular when she herself is such a monsterous apologist for Greece.

The fact remains, that the Eu has stated that Greece was seriously neglecting its obligations and/or was seriously deficient, etc., in a number of official documents since 27th Jan, and only the clinically delusional would try to deny i

Now I am sure somewhere there is a remark about empty vessels, which imo fits Giggy to the Tee......sad.. Thats what she has become, sad, in my view. I Won' even pretend to be humble about it.

As for her sad attempts at insults....
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby erolz66 » Sat May 21, 2016 10:31 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote: I have no interest in volunteering to discuss anything with a knave who twists the truth as professionally as you do.


This from the person who has relentlessly tried for the last 4 months and counting to deny that the EU concluded that "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" in regards to the implementing of Schengen acquis, even though that is exactly what they EU said they had concluded.

Who tried to claim that it was not the EU that said this. That claimed it was only said on a 'discussion site'. That claimed that because an entirely different report that itself said was not the report that subsequently concluded this and pre dated that report, did not concluded it that it therefore had not been concluded at all. That claimed the report that concluded this was not a report that would be used to make policy decision in the EU, even after the EU Council made policy decisions based on it and said so explicitly.

If real world evidence matters at all then I maintain it is abundantly clear who between the two of us most 'twists the truth'. Of course for you real world evidence is irrelevant, it always has been. However I suspect for most other people this is not the case.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sat May 21, 2016 10:43 pm

erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote: I have no interest in volunteering to discuss anything with a knave who twists the truth as professionally as you do.


This from the person who has relentlessly tried for the last 4 months and counting to deny that the EU concluded that "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" in regards to the implementing of Schengen acquis, even though that is exactly what they EU said they had concluded.

Who tried to claim that it was not the EU that said this. That claimed it was only said on a 'discussion site'. That claimed that because an entirely different report that itself said was not the report that subsequently concluded this and pre dated that report, did not concluded it that it therefore had not been concluded at all. That claimed the report that concluded this was not a report that would be used to make policy decision in the EU, even after the EU Council made policy decisions based on it and said so explicitly.

If real world evidence matters at all then I maintain it is abundantly clear who between the two of us most 'twists the truth'. Of course for you real world evidence is irrelevant, it always has been. However I suspect for most other people this is not the case.


Thanks for another demonstration of how you twist the truth.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sat May 21, 2016 11:24 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote: I have no interest in volunteering to discuss anything with a knave who twists the truth as professionally as you do.


This from the person who has relentlessly tried for the last 4 months and counting to deny that the EU concluded that "Greece is seriously neglecting its obligations" in regards to the implementing of Schengen acquis, even though that is exactly what they EU said they had concluded.

Who tried to claim that it was not the EU that said this. That claimed it was only said on a 'discussion site'. That claimed that because an entirely different report that itself said was not the report that subsequently concluded this and pre dated that report, did not concluded it that it therefore had not been concluded at all. That claimed the report that concluded this was not a report that would be used to make policy decision in the EU, even after the EU Council made policy decisions based on it and said so explicitly.

If real world evidence matters at all then I maintain it is abundantly clear who between the two of us most 'twists the truth'. Of course for you real world evidence is irrelevant, it always has been. However I suspect for most other people this is not the case.


Thanks for another demonstration of how you twist the truth.


Can you kindly clarify in what respect the truth has been twisted by Erolz!
is it not correct that on a number of occasions since 27 Jan the EU or rather organisations which are part thereof, ie the Commission and Council, two of the most significant EU bodies, have plainly stated Greece was seriously neglecting its obligations, and/or was seriously deficient in the management of its externsl border etc, ?

Do you deny in the face if the evidence contained in this forum that you have not raised such arguments?

As usual you try to cowshit your way out... Pathetic...thst is what you are and that I think is what your last post proove.

You are unable to deal with fact.
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Re: EU Commission - latest proposals (4th May)

Postby erolz66 » Sun May 22, 2016 8:26 am

GreekIslandGirl wrote:Thanks for another demonstration of how you twist the truth.


The truth that you have relentlessly tried to deny that the EU said that the Schengen evaluation report on Greece concluded that Greece was seriously neglected its obligations is there for anyone to see. Of course for you truth and reality are irrelevant so you do this and then claim those who point out you have done this are 'twisting the truth'.

The truth that you tried to claim the EU Commission press release where this was stated was 'an EU debate site and not the Commission' is there for anyone to see. Of course for you truth and reality are irrelevant so you do this and then claim those who point out you have done this are 'twisting the truth'.

The truth that you tried to make out the press release was about the 8th Bi Annual report on the functioning of schengen area when this was blatantly not the case is there for anyone to see. Of course for you truth and reality are irrelevant so you do this and then claim those who point out you have done this are 'twisting the truth'.

The truth that you claimed the "the evaluation report that will lead to decisions doesn't even criticize Greece" when this was just not true and shown to be not true beyond an possible doubt when the EU Council made it's Implementing Decision based on the evaluation report you had said would not be used to make decisions, is there for anyone to see. Of course for you truth and reality are irrelevant so you do this and then claim those who point out you have done this are 'twisting the truth'.

It is all there - your months of persistent and relentless attempts to distort and deny the undeniable truth of what the EU evaluation report on Greece concluded, for no other reason that you did not like what it concluded. This is what you do here on this forum. It is what you have always done here on this forum.
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