Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

I don't think he said that! He merely stated that the City financial system (being outside the Eurozone) operated under British law and this would need to be changed if it was transferred to Frankfurt?

I am sorry mate, but you are out of your depth.

1. Yes, he did say that. He said that one of the reasons the financial markets cannot move from London is that they need to be governed by English law (which is nonsense, in my opinion).
2. There is no such thing as British law. There are three jurisdictions in the UK: England and Wales (where English law applies), Northern Ireland and Scotland.
3. All member states of the European Union have their own legal systems. It has nothing to do with being in the eurozone or not. France and Germany, for example, are in the Eurozone and also have their own distinct legal systems.
4. Germany's legal system is generally considered to be excellent and it already makes provision for sophisticated financial markets to operate. Nothing would need to be changed for financial markets to move to Frankfurt and be governed by German law. The legislation is already in place.
5. As I have told you again, and again, and again (ad nauseum, if fact), were it to be the case - which I do not believe to be so - that the financial markets currently operating in London can only operate under English law, there exist mechanisms whereby this could be arranged for. Nowadays in the developed world, courts in one country regularly apply another country's law to the disputes before them if this is required under international private law. Thus, arrangement could easily be made for financial markets operating say in Frankfurt to do so under English law, if necessary.

[Robin Hood]

Another explanation of how governing law clauses work:

https://www.ashurst.com/doc.aspx?id_Resource=4721

Interesting, a typical legal explanation and supports what I said ..... in law for every law on the statute books (or in a contract?) there is another law to counter it. If there is a dispute 'Governing Law' determines legal jurisdiction which. in this case. would be European Law and this would have precedence over the English Law or any other national law.

Guessing ......... as I read that .......

Example: If Cyprus Banks operated against the terms of a contract, then the legal judgement would be made in a European Court and according to European Law and the contrary terms of contract are disregarded and European legislation prevails?

[Tim Drayton]

I have gone through the pain of listening to what 'the man on the telly who proved me right' said again, and his point about the city with reference to English law was (at about 8:10 minutes):

"Most contracts are negotiated under English law and you won't be able to get that in Frankfurt."
- I am sorry, but if you understand what a governing law clause is, you will realise that the above statement is nonsense. Two parties, regardless of their nationality, may conclude a contract anywhere they wish and include a governing law clause stipulating that the contract is to be governed by English law, and courts in any country that is a signatory to the 1980 Rome Convention must respect that clause.

Some other points I noted:

Near the beginning he says, "The reason I voted for Brexit was not that I thought it would be better for the English economy than remaining."
- In other words, he agrees with the consensus view that Brexit will be bad for the economy.

He also said, "Sterling has plunged after Brexit and is likely to remain low".
- In other words, he supports the view being expressed by Miltiades rather than the view expressed in the 'ye of little faith' outburst.

(I may not have quoted everything absolutely verbatim).

[Tim Drayton]

Another explanation of how governing law clauses work:

https://www.ashurst.com/doc.aspx?id_Resource=4721

Interesting, a typical legal explanation and supports what I said ..... in law for every law on the statute books (or in a contract?) there is another law to counter it. If there is a dispute 'Governing Law' determines legal jurisdiction which. in this case. would be European Law and this would have precedence over the English Law or any other national law.

Guessing ......... as I read that .......

Example: If Cyprus Banks operated against the terms of a contract, then the legal judgement would be made in a European Court and according to European Law and the contrary terms of contract are disregarded and European legislation prevails?

That's what you understood from that article? Sheesht.

[Tim Drayton]

Another explanation of how governing law clauses work:

https://www.ashurst.com/doc.aspx?id_Resource=4721

Interesting, a typical legal explanation and supports what I said ..... in law for every law on the statute books (or in a contract?) there is another law to counter it. If there is a dispute 'Governing Law' determines legal jurisdiction which. in this case. would be European Law and this would have precedence over the English Law or any other national law.

Guessing ......... as I read that .......

Example: If Cyprus Banks operated against the terms of a contract, then the legal judgement would be made in a European Court and according to European Law and the contrary terms of contract are disregarded and European legislation prevails?

Mate, a governing law clause is a clause that the parties to a contract add of their own free will stipulating the law (not jurisidiction - that would be a place of jurisdiction clause, whereby the parties stipulate which courts have jurisdiction over disputes) that governs the contract. Once this clause has been enacted, there remains no dispute over which legal system applies. No legal system can 'take precedence' (or 'prevail' in correct legal parlance) over this.

To quote one example that I know of: Two Turkish civil engineering companies concluded a contract involving a construction project in Turkey in which there was a governing law clause stipulating that the contract was to be governed by Turkish law and a place of jurisdiction clause stipulating that the courts in The Hague, Netherlands had sole jurisdiction over disputes arising out of the contract. The two parties later took a dispute to litigation, and it was indeed resolved by the Netherlands courts applying Turkish law. It is not unusual nowadays for courts in developed countries to have to apply the law of another country to disputes.

Such things are now possible under international private law as it currently operates in developed countries. By the same token, two parties in Frankfurt are perfectly entitled to enter into a contract with the stipulation that it be governed by English law, and the courts in most countries will be obliged to accept this and apply English law, not their own national law, to disputes over the contract. The point made by 'the man on the telly who supposedly proves you right' about contract law is wrong. Get over it, will you, and stop being such a sore loser.

[Robin Hood]

I don't think he said that! He merely stated that the City financial system (being outside the Eurozone) operated under British law and this would need to be changed if it was transferred to Frankfurt?

I am sorry mate, but you are out of your depth.

I won't argue with that ........

1. Yes, he did say that. He said that one of the reasons the financial markets cannot move from London is that they need to be governed by English law (which is nonsense, in my opinion).

He didn't say they 'HAD' to be governed by English Law, he said they 'ARE' governed by English Law and this presents a problem. If that is so, (logically; I see that as a reasonable observation) then the UK financial markets operate to English Law and to transfer this to Frankfurt without 'translating' it to comply with German (or European Law ) would mean you would have a 'common' financial market operating on two different principals of law? in effect you would have two separate entities.

2. There is no such thing as British law. There are three jurisdictions in the UK: England and Wales (where English law applies), Northern Ireland and Scotland.

I stand corrected.

3. All member states of the European Union have their own legal systems. It has nothing to do with being in the eurozone or not. France and Germany, for example, are in the Eurozone and also have their own distinct legal systems.

But according to the link on governing Law, in case of any dispute European Law would override the national Law as EU regulations have precedence?

4. Germany's legal system is generally considered to be excellent and it already makes provision for sophisticated financial markets to operate. Nothing would need to be changed for financial markets to move to Frankfurt and be governed by German law. The legislation is already in place.

I don't get this!!!!! So the English Law does not have to be translated to comply with German Law? Bear with me ? The speed limit in Germany is unlimited on the Autobahn so driving a German car in Cyprus, if my sale contract had a 'governing law' clause, I could do 150kph on the local highway and claim in court the Cypriot Judge had no jurisdiction, because German Law applied. (Modified 19.38 to add .... a stupid analogy but it demonstrates the stupidity of applying laws without thought!) !

5. As I have told you again, and again, and again (ad nauseum, if fact), were it to be the case - which I do not believe to be so - that the financial markets currently operating in London can only operate under English law, there exist mechanisms whereby this could be arranged for.

I apologise for making it difficult for you, and I agree I am a pain-in-the-bum ........ but is this not what Keen has said! He said it would be difficult and a lengthy process to invoke, not impossible.

Nowadays in the developed world, courts in one country regularly apply another country's law to the disputes before them if this is required under international private law.

Surely, though not without the 'governing law' clause?

Thus, arrangement could easily be made for financial markets operating say in Frankfurt to do so under English law, if necessary.

OK! Maybe I am thick when it comes to Law but I fail to see, as an engineer not a lawyer, how you can operate any system with two different sets of regulations or standards. You HAVE to ensure they are fully compatible and this, as Keen says, is a time consuming exercise thus making such a transfer difficult ......... again, he did not say it was impossible

As I said, I am not a Lawyer, so I don't refute what you say I just fail to see how it could operate in this way.

[Paul ZKTV]

hi its the TV man here ,who is not a lawyer but started off with a tin bath on the wall in battersea and now has millions ...

Example: If Cyprus Banks operated against the terms of a contract, then the legal judgement would be made in a European Court and according to European Law and the contrary terms of contract are disregarded and European legislation prevails?

You HAVE TO START IN A LOCAL COURT - ONLY IF THE HIGH COURT GIVES YOU LEAVE - AND IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING REALLY BIG CAN IT BE GIVEN TO THE ECJ
There IS NO EU LAW - it dont exist - a EU DIRECTIVE and its called that cause it DIRECTS is passed THRU THE UK PARLIAMENT
the same happens in the 31 countries of the EEA .if you have a CIVIL contract,it is issued in the country it is issued in with a clause
that it is to that countries court you have to go to sort out any problem ...
IF YOU HAVE CAR INSURANCE IN THE UK MOST ARE FROM GIB ....
http://www.gia.gi/gibraltar-as-an-insurance-domicile/

IT TOOK EIRE 53 YEARS TO REMOVE ENGLISH LAW FROM ITS BOOKS
and there is a lot more ÉUROPEAN law on the UK books then there was
remaining from leaving the british empire in 1949 ..

as for the courts ..cases go to the HIGH COURT of E+W or SCOTLAND - and then go SIDEWAYS to the ECJ
their answer is handed BACK to the E+W HIGHT COURT for them to put into practise .
the ECJ can then RECOMMEND that that ruling is put forward as a DIRECTIVE and put thru all 31 EEA states ...

We had a big case where SKY said you cant buy EU decoder cards to watch football in the UK
Or that you cant take a SKY CARD to Spain and watch it there ..in both cases SKY lost and you
can watch UK TV in spain AS LONG AS YOU PAY FOR IT

I don't get this!!!!! So the English Law does not have to be translated to comply with German Law? Bear with me ? The speed limit in Germany is unlimited on the Autobahn so driving a German car in Cyprus, if my sale contract had a 'governing law' clause, I could do 150kph on the local highway and claim in court the Cypriot Judge had no jurisdiction, because German Law applied. (Modified 19.38 to add .... a stupid analogy but it demonstrates the stupidity of applying laws without thought!) !

im sure you were a bus driver before coming to cyprus ,coz again your clueless . The LAW OF GERMANY APPLIES IN GERMANY - THE LAW OF CYPUS APPLIES IN CYPRUS
A few examples ...i have a UK plated car in spain ,as im not a resident of spain i dont have to put it on spainish plates ,however i also dont have buy UK road tax and i do a SORN as ITS NOT UNDER UK JURISDICATION - you dont need a UK TV licence to watch BBC in switzerland coz ITS NOT UNDER UK JURISDICATION - A GERMAN CANT DRIVE A GERMAN CAR FAST IN CYPRUS ...BECAUSE HE IS NOT UNDER GERMAN JURISDICATION .a man from MALI cant marry three times in CYPRUS because ....

[Robin Hood]

hi its the TV man here ,who is not a lawyer but started off with a tin bath on the wall in battersea and now has millions ...

Example: If Cyprus Banks operated against the terms of a contract, then the legal judgement would be made in a European Court and according to European Law and the contrary terms of contract are disregarded and European legislation prevails?

You HAVE TO START IN A LOCAL COURT - ONLY IF THE HIGH COURT GIVES YOU LEAVE - AND IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING REALLY BIG CAN IT BE GIVEN TO THE ECJ
There IS NO EU LAW - it dont exist - a EU DIRECTIVE and its called that cause it DIRECTS is passed THRU THE UK PARLIAMENT
the same happens in the 31 countries of the EEA .if you have a CIVIL contract,it is issued in the country it is issued in with a clause
that it is to that countries court you have to go to sort out any problem ...
IF YOU HAVE CAR INSURANCE IN THE UK MOST ARE FROM GIB ....
http://www.gia.gi/gibraltar-as-an-insurance-domicile/

IT TOOK EIRE 53 YEARS TO REMOVE ENGLISH LAW FROM ITS BOOKS
and there is a lot more ÉUROPEAN law on the UK books then there was
remaining from leaving the british empire in 1949 ..

as for the courts ..cases go to the HIGH COURT of E+W or SCOTLAND - and then go SIDEWAYS to the ECJ
their answer is handed BACK to the E+W HIGHT COURT for them to put into practise .
the ECJ can then RECOMMEND that that ruling is put forward as a DIRECTIVE and put thru all 31 EEA states ...

We had a big case where SKY said you cant buy EU decoder cards to watch football in the UK
Or that you cant take a SKY CARD to Spain and watch it there ..in both cases SKY lost and you
can watch UK TV in spain AS LONG AS YOU PAY FOR IT

I don't get this!!!!! So the English Law does not have to be translated to comply with German Law? Bear with me ? The speed limit in Germany is unlimited on the Autobahn so driving a German car in Cyprus, if my sale contract had a 'governing law' clause, I could do 150kph on the local highway and claim in court the Cypriot Judge had no jurisdiction, because German Law applied. (Modified 19.38 to add .... a stupid analogy but it demonstrates the stupidity of applying laws without thought!) !

im sure you were a bus driver before coming to cyprus ,coz again your clueless . The LAW OF GERMANY APPLIES IN GERMANY - THE LAW OF CYPUS APPLIES IN CYPRUS
A few examples ...i have a UK plated car in spain ,as im not a resident of spain i dont have to put it on spainish plates ,however i also dont have buy UK road tax and i do a SORN as ITS NOT UNDER UK JURISDICATION - you dont need a UK TV licence to watch BBC in switzerland coz ITS NOT UNDER UK JURISDICATION - A GERMAN CANT DRIVE A GERMAN CAR FAST IN CYPRUS ...BECAUSE HE IS NOT UNDER GERMAN JURISDICATION .a man from MALI cant marry three times in CYPRUS because ....

I think I will stick with TD's explanation, at least he can write English and knows what he is talking about. You just spout rubbish!

I have driven various vehicles .... a bus not being one of them ..... but I do have a UK CAA licence to fly light aeroplanes!

[Tim Drayton]

I don't get this!!!!! So the English Law does not have to be translated to comply with German Law? Bear with me ? The speed limit in Germany is unlimited on the Autobahn so driving a German car in Cyprus, if my sale contract had a 'governing law' clause, I could do 150kph on the local highway and claim in court the Cypriot Judge had no jurisdiction, because German Law applied. (Modified 19.38 to add .... a stupid analogy but it demonstrates the stupidity of applying laws without thought!) !

No, you don't get it. It's truly pitiful. If your sale contract has a governing law clause, for example reading "This contract shall be governed by English law" or "English law shall apply to this contract", then if you have a dispute with the vendor or the vendor has a dispute with you over the contract, and either party decides to take this dispute to court, the court that hears the case will in most cases, especially if it is in a country that is a signatory to the 1980 Rome convention, have to apply English law in settling the dispute irrespective of what the law of that country is. Of course this does not mean that, if for example the governing law clause stipulates that German law applies to the contract, you then obey German traffic rules and not the traffic rules of the country you are driving in. The governing law clause states which law has to be applied by the courts if a dispute arising out of the contract comes to litigation. After so many attempts, you are obviously never going to be able to understand, so I would suggest you stop even trying.

[Tim Drayton]

Let’s just have one more try. Here is an example of an actual contract, a Dubai Crude Oil futures contract:

http://dubaimerc.com/uploads/images/DME ... 25_DCD.pdf

You will notice that clause 25.9 reads:
25.9 “This Contract shall be governed by and construed in accordance with English law.”
(NB – This is a governing law clause).

What does this mean? Does it mean that somebody who buys crude oil under this contract then becomes subject to English law in everything they do for the rest of their life? NO. Does it mean that crude oil bought under this contract becomes subject to English law in every way, so if the buyer stores the oil in, say, Iran, they must store it in accordance with English safety regulations? NO.

NO. It is the CONTRACT that is governed by English law. The CONTRACT, and only the CONTRACT, not the goods bought under the contract or the parties to the contract.

It means that if a dispute arises out of the contract, i.e. one party accuses the other of breaching the contract (for example, one party enters into a contract to buy crude oil and receives the oil but then defaults on payment, or one party buys crude oil under the contract and then complains that the oil does not meet the technical specifications set out in the contract), and that dispute is taken to court, then the court must in most cases apply the rules of English law to interpreting the contract and resolving the dispute. To give one example, English law does not accept the validity of penalty clauses and employs the doctrine of liquidated damages instead. So, if a contract had a governing law clause stipulating that English law applied to the contract, and such contract contained a penalty clause, a court hearing the dispute would have to apply English law and either deny a claim under the penalty clause or reconstrue the clause to be a clause for liquidated damages and recalculate the amount due accordingly, even if the jurisdiction the court hearing the case was in allowed for penalty clauses.

NO, NO, NO, this does NOT mean that if crude oil bought under this contract is spilled into the sea in Indian territorial waters then penalties under English law and not Indian law would apply. NO, NO, NO, this does NOT mean that if one of the parties to the contract later commits a crime, they will be prosecuted under English law. It means that English law applies to the CONTRACT, and ONLY the CONTRACT.