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One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

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One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby tsukoui » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:22 pm


What We Need

We’ve spent the last five years researching the problems caused by the current debt-based monetary system and how to fix them. This is what we think needs to change to fix our broken money system:

1. Take the power to create money away from the banks, and return it to a democratic transparent and accountable process

2. Create money free of debt

3. Put new money into the real economy rather than financial markets and property bubbles


http://positivemoney.org/our-proposals/
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:40 pm

They have been talking to the UK Government for several years and have made some progress but it is slow going. I believe the latest success was to get the Government to agree to a sort of Monetary Policy Committee to look into changing the system. Whatever they come up with .... it will always be an uphill struggle as so very few people know how the monetary system works .... as you can see on this Forum?

This could be an interesting thread as far as I am concerned. If you are interested, maybe others are and obviously, posting this you are aware it is an interest I have .

I get regular e-mail updates from the Positive Money site and have done for several years. They also have quite an extensive video library which makes the explanations a bit more entertaining to watch.

Thank you for posting this. :)
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Paphitis » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:56 am

tsukoui wrote:

What We Need

We’ve spent the last five years researching the problems caused by the current debt-based monetary system and how to fix them. This is what we think needs to change to fix our broken money system:

1. Take the power to create money away from the banks, and return it to a democratic transparent and accountable process

2. Create money free of debt

3. Put new money into the real economy rather than financial markets and property bubbles


http://positivemoney.org/our-proposals/


Dream on!

Our current system is a beautiful thing! :D
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:08 am

Paphitis wrote:
tsukoui wrote:

What We Need

We’ve spent the last five years researching the problems caused by the current debt-based monetary system and how to fix them. This is what we think needs to change to fix our broken money system:

1. Take the power to create money away from the banks, and return it to a democratic transparent and accountable process

2. Create money free of debt

3. Put new money into the real economy rather than financial markets and property bubbles


http://positivemoney.org/our-proposals/


Dream on!


Ignore him .... he has not the slightest clue on this subject. As He has no interest and certainly nothing in the way of knowledge to offer..... I don't know why he bothers to comment?
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Paphitis » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:09 am

But you can't ignore the SYSTEM! 8)

And what a great system it is too! It rewards people for ingenuity, sacrifice and hard work.

I know how the system works and I know how to use it. The system hasn't denied me yet. 8)

It's a fantastic system which can make you a lot of money as long as you know how to use it. The one's complaining are usually those who claim they know how the system works but they have no clue on how to use the system for their own gain. Go figure!

You can do anything in this world, with an open mind, some tenacity and aspiration. Those lacking, just want to change the system, but the system is too big and very elaborate and making people and countries rich.

Swim or drown! Your choice! 8)
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Paphitis » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:29 am

The process of creating money is transparent and very accountable. the Banks are accountable to the market.

But not only this, imagine if Banks couldn't create money.

Well folks, that would just be the shittiest thing for the hard working poor and middle class, because now, they are denied their aspiration by borrowing money and you deny them opportunity.

Another example. Every western country wants the best Health Care System, the Best Education and University System, the best transport infrastructure and services. yet most people don't want to pay too much tax.

Well, if you want the best of everything, you need to pay 50% of your hard earned in tax. The rich will set up Trust Funds, electronically transfer money and will always pay less. So again, the working class and the middle class carry the can.

Now if you're not prepared to pay 50% in tax, and only prepared to pay 30% or less, then you can't have the best of everything. A compromise is necessary. So you will end up with an ok Health System and Education System as well as ok transport system and services. Can't have it both ways.

And if the poor and middle class only pay 30% and less, they have a better chance of having a go. They can go to the Bank and borrow and not be denied a reasonable standard of living or retirement. They can set up a small business, and perhaps employ someone too. Small business is actually the Biggest Employer sector in the Western World not the big corporations.

The system is the best we got. 8)
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:59 pm

Paphitis wrote:But you can't ignore the SYSTEM! 8)

And what a great system it is too! It rewards people for ingenuity, sacrifice and hard work.

I know how the system works and I know how to use it. The system hasn't denied me yet. 8)

It's a fantastic system which can make you a lot of money as long as you know how to use it. The one's complaining are usually those who claim they know how the system works but they have no clue on how to use the system for their own gain. Go figure!

You can do anything in this world, with an open mind, some tenacity and aspiration. Those lacking, just want to change the system, but the system is too big and very elaborate and making people and countries rich.

Swim or drown! Your choice! 8)


OK .... that is your view. I don't agree with the sentiment but you are entitled to see others as you wish to see them ..... I think I show just a bit more compassion and understanding of others than you do .... and that is simply my opmion.
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:41 pm

Paphitis: This post just demonstrates how very little you know about the system! So I will dissect it .... I don’t have any high powered meeting with bankers and millionaires today ..... that was yesterday .... so I have time to answer your post.
The process of creating money is transparent and very accountable. the Banks are accountable to the market.

As I have asked you to do before ..... if it is so transparent then explain to all of us that obviously are nowhere near as clever as you are ....... exactly how the process of money creation works. Surely for someone as intelligent and well informed as you it cannot be that difficult? I have asked you several times to do this ..... but so far you seem to be reluctant to give some sort of explanation, with some credible links, of course.
But not only this, imagine if Banks couldn't create money.

OK, you asked, so let’s look at that single point. I realise you are somewhat intellectually challenged on this subject so I will try and keep it as simple as I can.

If the Government created the electronic money, the same way they have exclusively created paper money for over a 150 years, let’s just look at what changes for the private borrowers; the individual, the small business, the importer, the exporter, research and development etc. and even the big businesses? In terms you should be able to understand .......... on the face of it NOTHING!

The only thing that changes and then only behind the scenes, is the source of the ‘money’ (it is like changing suppliers) and the fact that the banks now have a liability to repay the supplier (The independent Central Bank), every time they create debt (i.e. make a loan). You would still apply for your loan with the same requirements of the bank and you would make payments to the bank, just as you do now. NO DIFFERENCE' !

I am sure that as an astute business man you do understand the process of changing suppliers?

So there are no disadvantages except that the bank now has to service their debts, just like the rest of us do. They can no longer lend without liability, the same as you or I cannot borrow without liability!

Governments do not need to make a profit themselves and any profit others make from the system .... their Central Bank creates in the first place. This is a big advantage for the borrower because the interest rate for any loan can be increased or decreased without affecting the banks profit levels. Now I suspect this is difficult for you to understand? So let me give you an example.

If a loan of €100k is granted by a bank and their mark up is say 5%, the CB now has an option to adjust the rate to suit the type of loan. Assume it is a housing loan for a first time buyer, the bank could give it to them (by government directive) at zero interest but the bank would still be allowed to make 5% on the deal. How, very simple when you know HOW!

The CB transfers €100k to the lending bank and that is represented as the debt in the borrowers loan account ..... he has to pay that back to the bank BUT ..... the bank only has to pay the Central Bank 95% of it. Does the CB lose anything ..... of course not, they created the numbers used in the transaction out of thin air In the first place, like they have with notes for 150 years. So they lose nothing ...... the borrower only pays back the capital to the bank ..... and the bank still makes a profit. It is called a subsidised loan. Nothing could be simpler!

So all your scare stories are based on a lack of knowledge and are unfounded .... just like the IN/OUT Brexit campaign ...... they work on peoples ignorance through mouthpieces who just parrot what they have been led to believe, because they are also just as ignorant as their audience.
Well folks, that would just be the shittiest thing for the hard working poor and middle class, because now, they are denied their aspiration by borrowing money and you deny them opportunity.

You are wrong .... I just showed you why! Those that want to borrow can do so and depending what it is you want the money for, the rate of interest can be anything from 0% - (i.e. a subsidy) say for first time buyers .... to 150%+ for those fabulously rich people like you who want to buy another luxury Yacht, a new private jet or invest in a new Marina in Nicosia. :roll: :wink: You want it .... but you pay for it! As you say “......if you want the best of everything, you need to pay .....”!
Another example. Every western country wants the best Health Care System, the Best Education and University System, the best transport infrastructure and services. yet most people don't want to pay too much tax.

Once again ... you are confused!

The explanation above concerns private and corporate loans provided by banks. You have now switched lanes and are talking Government debt, two completely different things. 1) the banks need to make a profit on every transaction and 2) the government doesn’t! The ball game changes.

So let's have a go at explaining how this works with Government funding:

In the above explanation, the Central Bank Created the money from nothing, (electronically), loans it to the banks, they loan it to their customers, who repay the bank, the bank deducts its cut and gives the rest back to the Central bank.

For Government debt .... you have the same starting point ..... the Central Bank creates the money out of thin airand transfers it to the treasury, the treasury pays the wages, telephone bills, contractors, doctors, nurses, policemen, soldiers etc and builds new ports, factories, railways, roads, airports, ships, helicopters, aeroplanes, MRI machines, hospitals and schools......... all within certain constraints .... like ‘easy-easy’. The big difference now ..... the money is not a loan, so there is no need for the Government to repay the money or the interest to its own Bank.

When this money is spent into the economy, everything spent is subject to added taxes. These taxes are collected and instead of being used to repay debt to the banks, it is paid to the treasury to be re-spent into the economy. It is known as perpetual money ..... once in the system it stays in the system ..... it is not paid back to private commercial banks for them to destroy as they do now and then re-create it as more government debt.
Well, if you want the best of everything, you need to pay 50% of your hard earned in tax. The rich will set up Trust Funds, electronically transfer money and will always pay less. So again, the working class and the middle class carry the can.

I don't agree with your sentiment but, your (our) “......hard earned taxes’ will now go back into the economy, because there is no debt or interest to repay ...... the money the government is now spending is debt free and interest free. As your taxes are no longer funding the life style of the rich bankers and plunging economies such as that of Greece into bankruptcy and poverty, much more of it, in fact all of it, goes back for the government to spend on projects such as “.......the Best Education and University System, the best transport infrastructure and services” and super hospitals, good pensions and healthcare. The rich can do what they like with their money ..... providing they pay the taxes due on their expenditure.....but tax evasion and avoidance could be stamped out overnight.
Now if you're not prepared to pay 50% in tax, and only prepared to pay 30% or less, then you can't have the best of everything. A compromise is necessary. So you will end up with an ok Health System and Education System as well as ok transport system and services. Can't have it both ways.

But that is just not true at all. That is the way YOU see it because your concept of the system is very limited..... i.e.’ what’s mine, I will keep and share it with nobody’ mentality.

But what you can’t see is that if this money that the CB creates is used only internally to pay for all the goods and services ...... there is no need for people to pay any income tax. You only need income tax if you need to repay debts to the banks ...... no government debt ..... no income tax. You then make the rich pay taxes when they convert to a reserve currency, when they take it out to stash it into their off shore Tax havens and trust funds. They can bring it back anytime and convert it back to the national currency for free, but it costs them to convert it back, every time they take it out.

So, yes you can have it both ways!
And if the poor and middle class only pay 30% and less, they have a better chance of having a go. They can go to the Bank and borrow and not be denied a reasonable standard of living or retirement. They can set up a small business, and perhaps employ someone too. Small business is actually the Biggest Employer sector in the Western World not the big corporations.

The poor, the middle classes, the rich need not pay income tax ..... the only reason they pay it now is to repay the Bankers for lending them money the banks never had in the first place ..... and at interest. Surely .... as a super rich, wheeling, dealing ,astute business man, acting at the hub of the capitalist system and hob-knobbing with the Elite and not so elite (Arabs) ..........you can see the benefits of loans at selective interests rates for individuals and businesses, no income taxes to pay and a society that provides the best for all the people and leaves the supper rich like you to spend your money any way you want to.
The system is the best we got.

Well as a bit of a Neanderthal when it comes to the monetary system ......you would think that any way!

That is what the Neanderthal grunted as his world started to crumble around him..... whilst the smart ‘early left wing, socialist, conspiracy theorist’ started farming, building houses, making flint tools and eventually forging metal and printing books ...... and they even invented banks. Now tell me who was the smartest and most successful? The Neanderthal with a small brain, big mouth and no imagination ...... or the smart guy who used his imagination, acquired knowledge and applied skills to create the World we have today. :?:

I expect your usual offensive reply as I think most of this will go in one ear and out of the other. I think it is way above your pay grade any way but try working it out for yourself and you will soon see (depending on how good you are) that it does actually work.

Please before you start ranting that I am an idiot, dork, fantasist, or conspiracy theorists etc. ...... try forming your insults into a coherent question/query instead. :roll:
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Paphitis » Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:32 am

Oh yes I know very little about the Banking system Robin Hood but I know how to use it and it works for me.

Without them, I couldn't achieve the things I have so far or achieve the things I have in the pipeline.

They are fantastic, but I engaged them positively and they responded and take a very keen interest and always willing to support me.

You just continue collecting your Pension that guys like my give you and say thank you! :)

Money creation is GREAT! I fully support it knowing that without it, then nothing will ever get done in terms of economic activity and you receiving your pension.

You just don't like it because some people will soar whilst others will be feather dusters. if you want to soar, then it takes years of sacrifice, as well as some smarts, and tenacity and a certain level of risk aversion. You can't take a punt without the prospect or potential of losing a battle or 2 along the way.

Have you ever wondered why the most successful people have Bankruptcy records? It's because they are punters and they make the world spin and the Banks are a vital enabler.

I'm a punter mate. And you won't be seeing me collect a Pension. No friggin way will be eating Cat Food or freeze my nuts off in winter! I like to walk around my house in my boxers mate. The cold isn't very endearing! :lol:
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Re: One for Robin Hood - Positive Money

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:55 am

Paphitis,
Oh yes I know very little about the Banking system Robin Hood but I know how to use it and it works for me.

I don't know much about 'banking' either ..... the monetary system YES, I do know a lot about that !

You have moderated your response .... so can I assume we can now exchange views as adults instead of exchanging insults? I don’t think you actually read my reply because you are putting forward the same invalid assumptions.

Without them, I couldn't achieve the things I have so far or achieve the things I have in the pipeline.

We need banks ... period! But we need them to perform banking functions to serve society rather than just financial institutions that invariably are owned by the banks. If the CB created money ..... for you nothing would change certainly not for the worse. Imagine that instead of investing in a commercial project, you could get the same return by building some schools and hospitals? Society would gain and so would you.
They are fantastic, but I engaged them positively and they responded and take a very keen interest and always willing to support me.

Banks will always lend you money when you don’t need it, it is when you need it that they are far less cooperative. If this project you are involved in starts running into financial problems ...... and you ask the bank for help, I can assure you they will not be too keen to help. Bankers will lend you their umbrella when the sun is shining but will want it back when it starts raining.

You just continue collecting your Pension that guys like my give you and say thank you!


I paid for my pension or rather the pensions received by those that retired before me. They never thanked me! The little nest egg I had, got wiped out by the mother of all banks, a household name. (I add that this bank will not even look at opening a personal account unless you have at least £5m to put into it) ..... because I didn’t have a clue about the system and was given bad advice so that the bank made a guaranteed profit and protected itself, but at my expense. A bit late in the day but that was what stirred my interest in the subject.

Money creation is GREAT! I fully support it knowing that without it, then nothing will ever get done in terms of economic activity and you receiving your pension.


We need to create money, no argument about that. My observation, and one that is gaining ground, is HOW we create it and by whom. To do this you need to know how that is achieved now before you can formulate any beneficial corrections. Positive Money are trying to impart that basic information as well as coming up with solutions.

You just don't like it because some people will soar whilst others will be feather dusters. If you want to soar, then it takes years of sacrifice, as well as some smarts, and tenacity and a certain level of risk aversion. You can't take a punt without the prospect or potential of losing a battle or 2 along the way.


I have no problem with people ‘soaring’, good luck to them, what I don’t go for is them doing it to the detriment of others that prefer to walk! In what I tried to describe to you, there would be no need for income tax. Everyone rich or poor would be on equal footings. You could soar to the edge of space and those who didn’t want to soar could carry on working for the ‘soarers’ and being content with a less risky lifestyle.

You only have to look at what happened with banking when, after some time soaring, like Ikarus they got too close to the Sun, the wax melted and their soaring feathers fell out. They then made the ‘walkers’ pay for their mistakes. In my book, that was wrong, we should have let them collapse.

Have you ever wondered why the most successful people have Bankruptcy records? It's because they are punters and they make the world spin and the Banks are a vital enabler.


No, the reason is obvious ...... because the ‘soaring’ attitude prevails. The ‘soarers’ borrow, take risks and suddenly their ‘soaring’ turns into a nose dive! But have you ever considered how many thousands of ‘walkers’ paid the price for their bad judgement? Have a look at the BHS collapse ..... the ‘soarers’ stole millions, left a huge hole in the pension scheme which will now effect thousands of ‘walkers’ who were just looking toward the comfortable retirement they had saved for, and the chief ‘soarer’ buggered of to his yacht in Monaco with his wife! That is what pisses me off, they demand their rights to ‘soar’ but demand also that the ‘walkers’ pay for their safety net when the scheme goes belly-up!
I'm a punter mate. And you won't be seeing me collect a Pension. No friggin way will be eating Cat Food or freeze my nuts off in winter! I like to walk around my house in my boxers mate. The cold isn't very endearing!


If it goes well, good luck to you ...... but if it fails you will become a socialist overnight and either demand help or you will be lining up to collect your dole money!

FYI: I live on enough to make life liveable, we don’t eat cat food .... although the cat eats ours! We live on a very healthy and nutritional home cooked diet (we never eat ‘freezer meals’). I live in a 230sq.m bungalow, on a 1600 sq.m plot, that I designed, I built and built it my way ..... one of the advantages of living in Cyprus ....... nobody gave a shit providing from outside it looked like the original planning drawings. I have never seen a building inspector or any 'official'.

We eat well and live a comfortable life style that suits us. I am reasonably fit and can still manage a days work but, unlike the Cypriot millionaire I was talking to on Thursday evening (who came up for a slice of Polish home made apple pie and Ice Cream) I don’t need to call a plumber , electrician or builder when things go wrong and I don’t have to rely on others ...... he has to pay for such advice and help ..... unless he ropes me in and then all he does is ‘pay’ me in Carob logs. It works well .... I think it is the way things used to be; exchange and barter ...... my talents for his logs.


Read what I explained to you and you will see that just the single act of taking away the privilege of money creation from the banks and giving it BACK to the State, has a lot going for it. What I wrote barely scratches the surface. If you want to question anything (politely!)I am happy to try and explain, but only on what I know ..... and in spite of what you think, that is NOT banking, it is more allied to economics.
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