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Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:02 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote: It is a fact that women who reject motherhood are generally psychos, and those who can't have children either because the husband or them are not fertile, feel incomplete.


Utter nonsense imo.


Do you really beleive that or you think it should be so??


Well as Supporttheunderdog correctly pointed out you make two different assertions. One that women who reject motherhood (by choice) are generally psychos. Secondly that people who want their own children feel incomplete.

This second claim in the form you wrote is not utter nonsense imo and I should have been clearer about that. Clearly for people who want their own child and are unable to achieve that, they may well feel 'incomplete'. In the same way someone who has a burning desire to be, to pluck an example out of thin air, a police person but is unable to qualify for such a role for some reason, may well feel 'incomplete'.

If you cast the second claim in the form that women (or men) who are unable to have children of their own are incomplete, rather than some of them (those that want their own children) feel incomplete, then I do think that claim would be utter nonsense imo.

I am just shy of 50 years old. I have since a very young age been of the opinion that choosing to make new children whilst the world is already full of existing children in dire need of loving parents and a stable home and given that the world is already struggling under the burden of population, is a selfish, narcissistic ego driven pursuit. These are some of the reason why I have by choice chosen to not have my own children. I have always said from a very young age, if I wanted to experience the nurturing of a child, I would adopt and foster before having my own children. My partner of 30 years also chooses to not have children of her own. I do not think either of us are 'psychos' or incomplete because of this life choice of ours. I really do not understand why so many people have a desire to have children that have to be made of a random mix of their own and one other specific persons genes. For me the desire to want to nurture and raise a child is understandable but to only want to do so if it has 'your genes' and not if it does not is a mystery. Population growth is the unspoken 'elephant in the room' that no one talks about or tackles, yet is at the core of finding sustainable ways for us to live on this planet. My 'carbon footprint' is large by any world average, but by choosing to bring a new life or multiple lives into the world I expand the carbon footprint I am responsible for exponentially and into the future long after I may cease to exist. I think it is obscene the resource that is expended trying to help first world couple who are unable to have have their own children when they are unable to, when there are hundreds of millions elsewhere in the world who die, or go blind, or suffer other debilities for want of the most basic medical care . If people are driven to nurture, then nurture the already existing unwanted children. Don't spend vast amounts of money and resource creating more children because you only want to nurture children that share 50% ish of your own genes.

Then there is the whole politics of the claim (which I admit may not be a claim you are making) that a woman that has not experienced childbirth is somehow 'incomplete', as a human being, because they have not experienced childbirth. To me this is the politics of previous centuries, of the oppression of women. It undermines all the real progress and gains of female emancipation that have been fought for so hard and won by so many around the world. Defining women, their role in society or their 'completeness' as human beings and such like in terms of their bearing of children or not, is to me the politics of the previous centuries of pre emancipation of women.


May I firstly say that I find Erdo's suggestion about women and motherhood are very sexist and outmoded. It must be the choice of the mother.

However the Comment used by Pyrpolizer was that
those who can't have children either because the husband or them are not fertile, feel incomplete
not "ARE" incomplete. I think Pyrpolizer is correct. You chose not have Children. That is your choice. You obviously do not feel incomplete. I am not going to criticise you or your feelings, but do not dismiss the feelings of those who want, but cannot have Children.

Speaking from Direct experience I can tell you that people who cannot have, but want Children, can feel incomplete. I am lucky: my wife and I are lucky, as we now have Children, but I can tell you the feeling of incompleteness until they arrived was intense, both on my part and that of my wife.
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby erolz66 » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:32 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote: May I firstly say that I find Erdo's suggestion about women and motherhood are very sexist and outmoded. It must be the choice of the mother.


You may of course say such and I will no less of you for doing so. I absolutely agree that the choice as to if to bear a child or not is with the mother. I do not think anything I have said is opposed to that ? Saying that women who choose not to bear children are 'generally psychos', seems to be opposed to the idea that choice must be the mothers, at least as I read it. I am however of the view that we, generically, as human beings, should choose to not make new children until we have dealt with the existing ones in need of parents and a stable loving home. I do realise this is not a 'mainstream' view and it is one that may cause offence to those who have chosen otherwise. I apologise for that if it does cause offence but I do actually believew it none the less and pretty much have my whole life.

supporttheunderdog wrote:However the Comment used by Pyrpolizer was that
those who can't have children either because the husband or them are not fertile, feel incomplete
not "ARE" incomplete. I think Pyrpolizer is correct. You chose not have Children. That is your choice. You obviously do not feel incomplete. I am not going to criticise you or your feelings, but do not dismiss the feelings of those who want, but cannot have Children.


Absolutely I accept that Pyrpolizer did not say 'ARE' and did say 'feel' and I absolutely concur that people in such situations could and would feel 'incomplete'. I think I did say all this already ? If I was not clear I happily say it again

erolz66 wrote:This second claim in the form you (Pyrpolizer) wrote is not utter nonsense imo and I should have been clearer about that. Clearly for people who want their own child and are unable to achieve that, they may well feel 'incomplete'.

I did 'extrapolate' from what Pyrpolizer wrote in her second part of her past, combining it with the first part and coming up with something else that she had not said, but I thought I had done so plainly and clearly and said that I had done this, for example where is said "which I admit may not be a claim you (Pyrpolizer) are making"

supporttheunderdog wrote:Speaking from Direct experience I can tell you that people who cannot have, but want Children, can feel incomplete. I am lucky: my wife and I are lucky, as we now have Children, but I can tell you the feeling of incompleteness until they arrived was intense, both on my part and that of my wife.


I do feel we are at cross purposes here. Once more I absolutely do not think there is anything unusual in a couple that wants their own children and failing to achieve that, feeling 'incomplete'. I do struggle to understand why some (not all) couples that want children and are unable to have them do not consider adoption / fostering as a solution and only seemingly want their own children (from their own genes) and nothing else in order to feel complete.
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby Sotos » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:20 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote:Erolz, have you considered suicide? Just imagine how much more carbon you will create by merely existing for another 30-40 years! You have no children to take care off, your views are already recorded and merely repeating them consumes valuable energy, and lets face it, if we take your logic to its extreme there is no point in you existing and you do it for selfish reasons, even though you have the ability to partially correct the mistake that your parents made in creating you ;) :P


I will take that in the light hearted, jocular sense I am guessing (?) you wrote it in and just respond with a :) If however there is any 'seriousness' you feel need addressing in that response do just let me know and I will respond as and when I get the chance.


The suicide part was a joke obviously ;) However basing such an important choice on carbon footprint and overpopulation is a bit weird in my opinion. And although you didn't have your own children you didn't adopt any either, so you can't use that as an excuse. Is this really why you didn't make children, or you simply didn't want any but you felt that you needed a "better" excuse to give to your family and friends when you were asked about it? I think that not wanting children is a far better reason for not having children than carbon footprint and overpopulation!
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby Sotos » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:27 pm

Speaking from Direct experience I can tell you that people who cannot have, but want Children, can feel incomplete. I am lucky: my wife and I are lucky, as we now have Children, but I can tell you the feeling of incompleteness until they arrived was intense, both on my part and that of my wife.


So you had to make many children to feel complete? How many are we talking about? I have one and I am 100% complete... any more and I would explode! ;)
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:38 pm

Sotos wrote:
Speaking from Direct experience I can tell you that people who cannot have, but want Children, can feel incomplete. I am lucky: my wife and I are lucky, as we now have Children, but I can tell you the feeling of incompleteness until they arrived was intense, both on my part and that of my wife.


So you had to make many children to feel complete? How many are we talking about? I have one and I am 100% complete... any more and I would explode! ;)


The wife nearly did explode as she had two buns in the oven at once :D :D :D
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby Kikapu » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:32 am

An interesting article on the topic of "motherhood/parenthood"!

I just said I don’t want to be a mother

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

I could not help but tweet: “I do not want to be a mother. Is it compulsory? It is none of your business. It is nobody’s business.” Well the expected happened; I have been bombarded with tweets of all kind. Most told me that I should not be a mother anyway, while some wished my mother thought like me. Some just cursed, though some supported.

Do I care about the reaction I have been getting? Not at all.

One can call this outdated modernist feminism. But guys face the fact that urban talk about the “body clock” and the “unstoppable urge to have a child after 30\40 years old” are all rubbish. Some women like me never “crave!” to have infants. I don’t envy but pity women for walking around with their always yelling kids.

Mothers bringing their children to their workplaces do not look cool but rather banal to me. I do not find babies cute; I cannot bond with them. I am a healthy woman and this is the way I am. I know many women who, most are hesitant to confess this publicly, regret having a baby right after having one. I see fathers pushing strollers with hollow looking eyes like a dead person. I do not see the “family” as an institution of salvation but rather like a prison that hypnotizes you so you cannot escape. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/i-just ... sCatID=580
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:16 am

supporttheunderdog wrote:
Sotos wrote:
Speaking from Direct experience I can tell you that people who cannot have, but want Children, can feel incomplete. I am lucky: my wife and I are lucky, as we now have Children, but I can tell you the feeling of incompleteness until they arrived was intense, both on my part and that of my wife.


So you had to make many children to feel complete? How many are we talking about? I have one and I am 100% complete... any more and I would explode! ;)


The wife nearly did explode as she had two buns in the oven at once :D :D


We Also adopted two boys (brothers) from Russia. That was a process started just over a year before my wife become pregnant and terminated just two months before the twins arrived. Result? I became a father four times over inside two months. :D . Of The boys, who are somewhat older than the girls, one is now married and I am a Grandfather. :D
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby erolz66 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:37 am

Sotos wrote: Is this really why you didn't make children, or you simply didn't want any but you felt that you needed a "better" excuse to give to your family and friends when you were asked about it? I think that not wanting children is a far better reason for not having children than carbon footprint and overpopulation!


I did not and do not claim this was the sole reason why I choose to not have children. The point I am making is that this aspect of the act of procreation is somehow taboo. We , society, talk all the time about environmental sustainability and yet we almost never talk about the role procreation plays in that. Creating new life is almost entirely seen as a 'positive' thing or even from nutters like Erdogan a duty. Yet no single decision I can make has a greater impact on the usage of the earth's resources than that of having a child or not. I do not think choosing to pro create or not should be controlled and legislated for but I do think we should be having discussion as a society about these things and I think we largely do not do this. Yes deciding to not have children is in many ways a 'selfish' decision but then deciding to have children is also in many ways imo a 'selfish' decision.
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby erolz66 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:41 am

supporttheunderdog wrote:We Also adopted two boys (brothers) from Russia.


That to me is an entirely positive, noble and socially useful act and by choosing to do this I say to you and your wife - respect.
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Re: Erdogan : Childless women are deficient and incomplete

Postby Sotos » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:45 am

erolz66 wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:We Also adopted two boys (brothers) from Russia.


That to me is an entirely positive, noble and socially useful act and by choosing to do this I say to you and your wife - respect.


Not to sound negative, but stud initiated the adoption before his wife got pregnant. So he was as "selfish" as most of us ;)
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