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IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:59 am

Paphitis wrote:Why it collapsed?

Because it was a friggin blazing inferno! Collapsing from the basement up sounds feasible to me if the reinforced load supporting steel structure was being heated to a couple thousand degrees Celsius or more. Probably the entire weight would be supported by the bottom and it collapsed.


I assume we are talking WTC7?

It was not a blazing inferno, that is clear from a multitude of videos and photographs! How do you get sufficient energy, to raise the temp to a couple of thousand degrees Celsius? Even if you could, how do you then distribute and control the condition so that all the structural supports gave way at exactly the same moment in time (within milliseconds) so that the building went down vertically? The building was asymmetric in design, as was the damage, therefore a collapse would follow Newton's Laws of Motion! It would have toppled in the line of least resistance ........ there can be no other scenario, unless, of course, it was Newton that got it all wrong. :roll:

No steel framed structure has ever collapsed due to fire alone. WTC7 could ONLY collapse as it did, and as all the videos show ........ if it had some human (or Devine) assistance/intervention! The evidence and the accepted laws of physics ...... do not support the official explanation.
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Paphitis » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:25 am

An airliner has never been lost at sea before either and no one envisaged an airline pilot flying an A320 into a mountain.

The building was on fire on 15 levels so this wasn't an isolated fire on a floor or 2.

Secondly, I didnt know you were an engineer! Post your qualifications. Those who authored the report posted their's.

One thing coming up with all these elaborate scandals but quite another to explain WHY and provide a motive for the murder of so many Americans.

Anyone?
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:36 am

Paphitis:
It's not true to claim that the US Government report makes no mention about the reasons why WTC7 collapsed. The report deals with it over some hundreds of pages, including an assessment why it collapsed.

The collapse of WTC 7 was hardly touched by the 911 Commission Repot because their brief was to look into the terrorist attacks ......... and WTC 7 was not attacked by terrorists. The collapse was looked into by NIST and their report is full of mistakes, omissions and wrong conclusions according to Architects and Engineers for 911 truth.

The media didn't give it as much airtime as the other 2 buildings. But the US Government has and was obligated to because people were killed in that building too. Firefighters were killed in that building as well.


Nobody died in WTC 7, if you think otherwise post their name(s) ! Also there were no serious fires in the building, there were just ‘normal’ furniture fires that the building was designed to withstand!

Your questions .... answered by the BBC can be found here!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/conspiracy_files/7434230.stm#4

I haven't read the report and it is massive. In addition, a lot of it is an engineering analysis about its construction and other things like load bearings and thermal tolerances which is beyond my capability or even willingness to read. I don't have a background in it!


That is why I have not read it ......... far to advanced for me but, those professionals that have read it and do understand what it says ...... have a tendency to disagree with the report and explain why! So I tend to be guided by reading/watching their explanations as all they want is to find out why the official story is not supported by the evidence.
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Kikapu » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:48 am

Robin Hood wrote:Kikapu:
I'm sorry B25 but, ALL the buildings were "controlled demolishing", including WTC7, EXCEPT for the Twin Towers, and your video proves it despite what the voice says. When "controlled demolishing" takes place, the buildings collapse from ground up. When it's not "controlled demolishing" like the Twin Towers, the buildings collapse from top to bottom, unless you want us to believe that every floor on the Twin Towers were rigged with explosives to go off in a timely fashion from top to bottom at the speed (almost) of gravity!


You are only partially correct about the twin towers 1 & 2 ! Look at the videos of the collapse........ the TOP sections i.e. that above the point of impact in both towers, COLLAPSED FROM THE BOTTOM UP, the rest of the structure collapsed FROM THE TOP DOWN, section by section ......... in a very controlled manner.


Yes of course the top part of the buildings at Twin Towers above where the impact of the planes took place did collapse bottom up, because the structure gave way beneath it, hence triggering the bottom up effect for a second or two before the whole top part of the building compacting the floors below, creating a chain reaction of top to bottom collapse of the Towers.

Look, this is very easy to explain. The tower that got hit second, collapsed first and the tower that got hit first, collapsed second. WHY?

Because the tower that got hit second, got hit at much lower level than the the tower that got hit first. All things being equal with the damage caused by the planes and the fire that followed, the tower that got hit second collapsed first because it had far more weight to support than the tower that got hit first, which caused the tower that got hit second to collapse first.

If we are to believe any "controlled demolition" theories on the Twin Towers, why not demolish the towers in the order they were hit. That would make sense, No?
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:12 am

Paphitis:
An airliner has never been lost at sea before either and no one envisaged an airline pilot flying an A320 into a mountain
.

Sorry I don't see the connection!

The building was on fire on 15 levels so this wasn't an isolated fire on a floor or 2.


Read the explanation on the BBC site. You are quoting things that are not true. The side of the building facing WTC1 and WTC2, was DAMAGED up to the 13-15th floor, it was not on fire over 15 floors. I believe about five different floors had fires but not even one complete floor was completely engulfed in flames, as it would need to be to support your collapse theory!
Secondly, I didnt know you were an engineer! Post your qualifications. Those who authored the report posted their's.


I do not claim to be an expert .... they do! I am an engineer but not a structural engineer. I have some 30 years experience some of that on war damaged sites ..... you soon see enough to understand the dynamics of a structure that has columns removed (blown up) and yet is still standing. You do not need to be an engineer, you need a engineering background and mind that is capable of looking at what the explanations are and then put them together in the light of engineering knowledge you do have.

One thing coming up with all these elaborate scandals but quite another to explain WHY and provide a motive for the murder of so many Americans.


It is pointless 'explaining' anything to those that have made up their minds with unshakeable belief that the story they have been given is absolutely true! But, you, like all those that follow the path that relies absolutely on official (government) explanations, always want those that disagree with you to present irrefutable facts, that you ignore anyway and yet you NEVER supply facts to support the explanation you accept without question.

I have said; I don't believe government was involved but that elements in positions of power could be. The CIA has a long history of covert operations, as do the FBI. An example:

Of all the 'terrorist' arrests made by the FBI since 911, the majority have been where they have set up some dumb arsed young Jihadi from a website, engaged with them as sympathyser's to the cause, play out an attack against the infidel and prepare an event for him (them?). Then they move in and arrest them on the job.... with all the evidence'! You have already said why! They need the smoking gun ..... the explosives .... the weapons ..... without that they are simply engaged in rather minor terrorist activities. I will stand corrected, but I believe the 1993 attack on the WTC was one such FBI sting operation that didn't go according to plan.

Anyone?

If you want a motive ................ well that is just hypothesis as, to date, not all the facts are known and certainly these events have not been openly investigated. :x
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Paphitis » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:32 am

Well this is going round in circles and I am not prepared to to debate about every lunacy and idiotic scenario.

So you win. A rather superficial victory on an obscure forum which no one reads anyway.

The US Government has released its report and its version stacks up a lot more and you can't even provide a MOTIVE!

If you can't do that then it's over.
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:51 pm

Kikapu:
Yes of course the top part of the buildings at Twin Towers above where the impact of the planes took place did collapse bottom up, because the structure gave way beneath it, hence triggering the bottom up effect for a second or two before the whole top part of the building compacting the floors below, creating a chain reaction of top to bottom collapse of the Towers.

I am sorry but the act of compacting floors requires energy. Kinetic energy – if you take energy out to compact floors and destroy steel columns, tie beams, even the light concrete floors, then the collapse would slow down .... again Newtons Laws of motion! It didn’t slow.... it continued to accelerate at almost free fall speed taking out the core columns right down to the basement all of which which were virtually undamaged.

The pancake theory, which you are explaining was discarded very quickly. There appears from all the videos that there was no resistance to the fall of the structures which would be so if it was one floor collapsing on the next .... and so on.
Look, this is very easy to explain. The tower that got hit second, collapsed first and the tower that got hit first, collapsed second. WHY?

I don’t know about easy but I tend to agree with that as a simplistic explanation.
Because the tower that got hit second, got hit at much lower level than the the tower that got hit first. All things being equal with the damage caused by the planes and the fire that followed, the tower that got hit second collapsed first because it had far more weight to support than the tower that got hit first, which caused the tower that got hit second to collapse first.

Again I agree to a point. You mention ‘weight’ and that is a static concept not a dynamic concept. The millisecond the structure started moving, what happened was governed by Newtow’s Laws of motion and what we are told conflicts with two of them!

Why did the top ten floors not tumble toward the weakest side of the building and topple over? Newton says that motion will always be in the direction of least resistance! The hundred stories below that point were completely undamaged and designed to hold the weight of the whole tower. The tough bit was the central steel core, the outer shell was little more than a corrugated steel tube tied to the inner core with the lattice floor beams. The floors were in the main light concrete poured onto light galvanised corrugated steel sheets. (Light concrete is around 20% by volume, air)

The impact obviously did not do enough damage to cause the collapse of the top section and it has been proved over and over again that 1) within maybe 2 minutes of impact the jet fuel was not the source of the fire. Much of it went straight through the structure to erupt as a ball of flame on the other side. 2) Liquid is heavier than air ..... any liquid fuel would head south through the central column and we know it did that because lifts came down full of charred bodies (according to Fire Fighters in the lobby at the time).

So what melted the steel columns? The office furniture fires started by the impact would have had insufficient heat generated to melt steel. So the columns didn’t melt, so let’s consider they got hot, softened and then bent ...... which way would they bend? In the direction of least resistance i.e. they would have toppled toward the open wound in the building on the side of impact, just as Newton predicts! I didn’t.

With the South tower the impact, which was filmed by dozens of film crews, was across a corner. Very few of the central columns would have suffered anything other than fairly light damage as it was hit by the wing tip of the aircraft. Other than that the same things happened ..... much of the fuel went up in an external fire ball, and after that after a very short time the fuel ceased to have any effect, it was furniture/partitions/carpets etc. that fed the fires. Supported by video of survivor standing the aperture left by the aircraft waving to be rescued, if it had been hot enough around there to melt of even soften steel. That would have been impossible.

Why did it not topple? Same arguments apply, in fact even more so because of the mass it was supporting as a static load. Directly it moved .... bingo .... it has to follow the line of least resistance! It it went straight down as we saw, then that was the line of least resistance so what happened to the 47 steel column core structure? In both cases, to destroy that would take energy. Transfer kinetic energy to remove the columns, rip out the floor beams and pulverise the light concrete and you slow the collapse .... in both cases it didn’t slow, it continued to drop at almost free fall acceleration.
If we are to believe any "controlled demolition" theories on the Twin Towers, why not demolish the towers in the order they were hit. That would make sense, No?


Looked at simplistically and disregarding any other factors , it would make some sense. The order of collapse, i.e.which went first, is really irrelevant as it would also depend on the extent of the damage to the structure and looked at, the North Tower, which was the second to go down would have sustained much more structural damage than the South tower as it took a head on impact covering almost the whole core structure.

This is not advanced engineering .......... it is basic GCE physics and common sense! :roll:
Last edited by Robin Hood on Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Paphitis » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:33 pm

I don't even know how you can even pass your opinion as a qualified one and even call it basic Physics.

I am no engineer by any stretch and know very little about construction. I am however, quite a capable let's just say Physicist of sorts with my background and do have some knowledge with Aerodynamics and things like pressure waves, geometry and metal fatigue and what temperature fluctuations do to it, especially heat.

On top of this, you provide NO motive as to why this was an inside job. The Americans don't need to do such a thing not to mention the fact that they are not known throughout their history for false flags against their own people in the heart of New York.

They are a superpower. They are able to do what they want. It's not as if they will be punished or even suffer sanctions. The UN is toothless against them.

No motive, and all credible engineering firms have not refuted the American reports. There are many conspiracists on the www who refute it and you might find some qualified people among them, but not one credible engineering firm, university department of engineering firm but just disgruntled people with a chip on their shoulder, conspiracists, and others motivated by a political agenda who just make it up as they go along.

Even with the flight manifests, the conspiracists were claiming there were no Muslims on any of the aircraft. They didn't say that all Muslim names were removed by the CIA did they? No much better to say there was no evidence of any terrorists because it's a lot more juicy. The thought never occurred to them that the authorities would have fudged the manifests and only release the names of the innocents on each aircraft.

This is going nowhere. When you make accusations of murder, the first thing investigators look for is a motive. You have not even got one.
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby Paphitis » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:39 pm

Anyway, no one is ever going to or able to prove the other wrong. What is contained in the American reports is quite feasible and I am sure the Americans would have gone to great depths to try and explain things the best way they can.

And there are literally dozens of conspiracy versions but none of those are backed up by anyone with an ounce of credibility. No one is buying any of the conspiracies, at least not the biggest and most reputable engineering firms or universities.

There are more important things to talk about. Right now, I am posting this from the best city in the world. Something Vegas.

Try and guess! :D
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Re: IN MEMORY OF 9/11 VICTIMS 15 YEARS ON.

Postby B25 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:51 pm

I'm with Robin Hood. Everything he has said makes perfect, logical, physical and engineering sense.

The motive was to get a peoples mandate to go to war in ME. They maybe a superpower but still need the necessary permissions to do certain jobs. And yes, I do thing the US was do a False flag and kill its own, isn't that the definition of a false flag after all???
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