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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Sotos » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:09 am

Londonrake wrote:Well, "excuses" all you want.

What occurred did so because of events and circumstances here and in Greece. Given what happened, the tragic outcome seemed obvious. If blaming others makes you feel better - so be it . However, I'm not here to provide you with someone you can bounce your angst off. Find somebody else.

Did you see the picture of the new Major of Gibraltar in her bikini though? Image


What happened here until 1960 is called British Colonialism, so stop talking as if Britain is Iceland. The fact is that Britain was ruling Cyprus against the will of Cypriots until 1960 and then they collaborated with the Turks and forced on us some pseudo-independence so Britain and Turkey could together control Cyprus, instead of Cyprus being part of Greece which is what the great majority of Cypriots wanted. So I am not blaming any "others", I am blaming those who had and continue to have their armies in Cyprus and prevent Cyprus from being free. This topic is very relevant to the link you posted. Maybe you only saw the pictures but I also read what she said... which I don't mind it at all, but I point out how different the two cases were treated.
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Sotos » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:14 am

Zenon33 wrote:
Sotos wrote:
Mayor of Gibraltar wrote:"We are British and always will be"


The great majority of Cypriots are Greek and always will be, but when we asked for a referendum for union with Greece the British refused and collaborated with the Turks (the previous colonialists) to deny democracy and freedom to Cyprus.



Majority of cypriots now want an independent state, not a union with a failed state like Greece.


The point is that what Cypriots want, both now and then, was never considered by those who pretend to be champions of democracy and freedom. All they care about is how to serve their own interests even when this comes on the expense of democracy and the human rights of others.
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:44 am

Imperialism has had a long and chequered history, but follows the same basic pattern. One place is more successful economically than others. That economic success translates into military superiority. That superior polity then sets about conquering its weaker neighbours, or places further afield, usurps their land and enslaves those people. However, without fail, all empires in history have so far eventually failed and crumbled. The British Empire, the empire to have once conquered and subjugated the largest amount of territory ever, was no exception to this general trend, as a comparison of the following two maps will make clear, the first showing the extent of the British Empire in 1921 and the second the situation in 1959. As I think we all know, the rot continued and all that is left is a rag tag assortment of isolated islands and tiny pockets of territory.

Image

Image

For example, here are a couple of dates when Britain acquired and lost the following (acquisition is problematic because it took place in stages so I have suggested a date that could be considered to be the starting point):

American Colonies: First permanent settlement in Jamestown 1607 – 1783
India: Pitt’s India Act of 1784 – 1947

As to Gibraltar, there are two key dates: 1704, when an Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar from Spain, and 1713, the date of the Treaty of Utrecht under which Gibraltar was ceded to Great Britain in perpetuity. Of course, there is no second date for Gibraltar, because it is still in British hands. The question, I think, must be, are we still in the historical process of the dismembering of the British Empire which will ultimately see Gibraltar lost to Britain, or is Gibraltar an exception and fated to be British until the end of time?
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby miltiades » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:50 am

Sotos wrote:
Zenon33 wrote:
Sotos wrote:
Mayor of Gibraltar wrote:"We are British and always will be"


The great majority of Cypriots are Greek and always will be, but when we asked for a referendum for union with Greece the British refused and collaborated with the Turks (the previous colonialists) to deny democracy and freedom to Cyprus.



Majority of cypriots now want an independent state, not a union with a failed state like Greece.


The point is that what Cypriots want, both now and then, was never considered by those who pretend to be champions of democracy and freedom. All they care about is how to serve their own interests even when this comes on the expense of democracy and the human rights of others.

I agree entirely. The wishes of the vast majority of native Cypriots were dismissed by the then Colonial British government as those wishes were contrary to the interests of British Colonialism. Democracy was not something that was held at a high esteem then. It applied solely if their strategic or other interests were not undermined.
The struggle in 1955 was perfectly legitimate and the goal aimed understandable given that Cyprus had never in its history enjoyed total freedom.

I believe that a very large percentage of G/Cs now, my self included, want independence and not Union with Greece.
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:59 am

An interesting point to muse on. If, as many experts say is a strong possibility, the UK breaks up after Brexit (assuming it happens), who gets the 14 remnants of empire known as the 'Overseas Territories'? For example, does England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland get Gibraltar? Or, does the collapse of the entity that was claiming sovereignty over these distant places mean that they also join the disintegration and are lost? Imagine there is a lottery for Gibraltar, and Northern Ireland wins and, given that as the six-county statelet of North Ireland is an artificial creation resulting from Britain's partition of Ireland in 1921 it seems certain to reunite with the Republic of Ireland, would Gibraltar then become sovereign Irish territory?
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:26 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:An interesting point to muse on. If, as many experts say is a strong possibility, the UK breaks up after Brexit (assuming it happens), who gets the 14 remnants of empire known as the 'Overseas Territories'? For example, does England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland get Gibraltar? Or, does the collapse of the entity that was claiming sovereignty over these distant places mean that they also join the disintegration and are lost? Imagine there is a lottery for Gibraltar, and Northern Ireland wins and, given that as the six-county statelet of North Ireland is an artificial creation resulting from Britain's partition of Ireland in 1921 it seems certain to reunite with the Republic of Ireland, would Gibraltar then become sovereign Irish territory?


There is of course the Commonwealth, which any country can withdraw from if they wish ...... and I don’t think they pay anything to the UK to leave though, not like the EU wants the UK to ! BTW ..... Gibraltar is not included, they must have a different status?

Fifty two countries are members of the Commonwealth. Our countries span Africa, Asia, the Americas, Europe and the Pacific and are diverse – they are amongst the world’s largest, smallest, richest and poorest countries. Thirty-one of our members are classified as small states – countries with a population size of 1.5 million people or less and larger member states that share similar characteristics with them. All members subscribe to the Commonwealth’s values and principles outlined in The Commonwealth Charter. Leaders of member countries shape Commonwealth policies and priorities. Every two years, they meet to discuss issues affecting the Commonwealth and the wider world at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM). All members have an equal say – regardless of size or economic stature. This ensures even the smallest member countries have a voice in shaping the Commonwealth.

...... and here is the map:
[url]
http://thecommonwealth.org/member-countries[/url]

What about the break up of the US Empire and the US States of America ? You don't mention that. :?:
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:04 pm

Of course, the USA (and not only the USA) operates through neo-colonialism, and that is a slightly different kettle of fish.
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:54 am

Interesting little fact. Gibraltar voted 96% remain in the EU referendum. Do the people there perhaps know something? Like, for example, that Brexit is a serious threat to the territory's current status.
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Londonrake » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:50 am

Tim Drayton wrote:Interesting little fact. Gibraltar voted 96% remain in the EU referendum. Do the people there perhaps know something? Like, for example, that Brexit is a serious threat to the territory's current status.


Not I suspect as much as Spain is perceived as "a serious threat to the territory's current status". :D

In the last referendum (2002) the populace, on an 88% turnout, voted 99% "No". That being to the question of shared sovereignty. There's been absolutely nothing to suggest that has changed and I'm pretty sure they voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU out of fear of Spain rather than economic factors.

Again, although there are now other, bigger, fish being fried there was much ridiculous media hype about the place. War! :roll:

AFAIUI about 12,000 Spaniards cross the border every day to work on the Rock. Spain is suffering greatly from the austerity imposed due to their membership of the doom currency and the adjacent region of Andalucia has an unemployment rate of about 30%. The majority of it among the younger generation. Money from Gibraltar employment provides something like a quarter of all revenue for the nearby Spanish town of La Línea de la Concepción.

As with Ireland, whilst there's never a shortage of doom 'n' gloom scenarios, the motivation on all sides to reach acceptable agreement is pretty compelling.
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Re: Gibraltar

Postby Londonrake » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:44 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:
Londonrake wrote:Meantime, get a life and perhaps start taking posts in the tone that they are presented.


Says the OP who starts a thread about retaining sovereignty over "Gibraltar" on a Cyprus Forum! :roll:


No different in that respect from Trump, Brexit, Russia, USA, Alexander Blackman, Iran, Saudi, Korea, et al? :roll:

Unlike the ridiculous talk of war and other Armageddon-like posts on Gibraltar at that time it was a lighthearted stab at the fact the people there have just elected an ex Miss World as their Mayor. Nothing other than a bit of a joke.

Look at the subsequent posts though. Jeez! Enosis, money laundering, "Royal slaves", Imperialism, etc. Totally irrelevant, uncalled for and some clearly racist.

Like I said, try taking posts in the context of the tone they are presented. That is - get a life.
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