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Turkish Referendum

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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:38 am

Meanwhile, the head of the Supreme Election Council, responding to journalists' questions, has said that it is impossible to determine the number of unstamped ballot slips that were accepted. In my eyes, it is a fair presumption that these were phony ballot slips and the onus is on those claiming victory to prove the contrary.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:44 am

Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Democracy and Islam are not compatible. Turkey has ONLY been going through the motions of democracy that has been the BIG lie ...


I think that's a bit extreme. Genuine, or almost 100% genuine, polls have been held in Turkey, including the first one to bring the AKP to power. Democracy is possible under a secular order, and I believe that secularism is compatible with all religions as long as they move into the private sphere.


Yes Tim, but, the so called "Modern Turkey" which has had 4 coups against Democracy and the last fake inside job coup only goes to show Democracy is foreign in Muslim countries. Yes, they may go through the motion of being democratic as a nation, but without true democratic values, but just only in name.


Yes, but you find that all medium-income countries have had chequered experiences with democracy, and, by regional standards, I would suggest that the Republic of Turkey in the form envisaged by its founder Mustafa Kemal outshone virtually all other Middle Eastern countries in terms of stability, the rule of law and democracy.
As to Turkish Cypriots on aggregate being far ahead, I have no dispute with you about that, but, don't forget there is also a significant minority in Turkey that has fully adopted modern, secular values and as individuals they are very similar to most Turkish Cypriots in terms of outlook.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Lordo » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:45 pm

every chance kikapu gets he attacks muslims like his old buddykant milti. he is blind to what extend his yank friends are in control of these governments in the arab world. to this day erdogan has done nothing to upset the yanks. so long he does what they say they dont give a shit what else he does.

in the early 60s when the tergs found out that grivas was in cyprus the americans assured them that he is there to fight communists. they were oblivious to his real agenda. it seems the yanks have never learn from their mistakes. this can be expalined by the fact that the yanks make mistakes but others pay the price.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Kikapu » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:05 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Democracy and Islam are not compatible. Turkey has ONLY been going through the motions of democracy that has been the BIG lie ...


I think that's a bit extreme. Genuine, or almost 100% genuine, polls have been held in Turkey, including the first one to bring the AKP to power. Democracy is possible under a secular order, and I believe that secularism is compatible with all religions as long as they move into the private sphere.


Yes Tim, but, the so called "Modern Turkey" which has had 4 coups against Democracy and the last fake inside job coup only goes to show Democracy is foreign in Muslim countries. Yes, they may go through the motion of being democratic as a nation, but without true democratic values, but just only in name.


Yes, but you find that all medium-income countries have had chequered experiences with democracy, and, by regional standards, I would suggest that the Republic of Turkey in the form envisaged by its founder Mustafa Kemal outshone virtually all other Middle Eastern countries in terms of stability, the rule of law and democracy.
As to Turkish Cypriots on aggregate being far ahead, I have no dispute with you about that, but, don't forget there is also a significant minority in Turkey that has fully adopted modern, secular values and as individuals they are very similar to most Turkish Cypriots in terms of outlook.


Yes, of course secular Muslim Turks in Turkey do by and large embrace democracy western style, but as a Muslim country, Turkey never really embraced western style democratic values, and now, Turkey will backtrack on democracy even more that it has already done. Lets see what the secular Turks will do now. Will they take up arms against dictatorship to restore democracy, or will they just roll over and die, since they can no longer bring back democracy via democratic means since Erdogan will be the Supreme leader with ALL the decision making.

Turkish Cypriots more than ever must cut off the Turkish umbilical cord once and for all and remain as Cypriots and not become Turkey's authoritarian servants in Cyprus.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:46 pm

Lordo wrote:every chance kikapu gets he attacks muslims like his old buddykant milti. he is blind to what extend his yank friends are in control of these governments in the arab world. to this day erdogan has done nothing to upset the yanks. so long he does what they say they dont give a shit what else he does.

in the early 60s when the tergs found out that grivas was in cyprus the americans assured them that he is there to fight communists. they were oblivious to his real agenda. it seems the yanks have never learn from their mistakes. this can be expalined by the fact that the yanks make mistakes but others pay the price.


Yes, everyone and their dog in Turkey believes the Americans were behind the 1980 coup, and I do, too, although admittedly the only evidence for this is fairly circumstantial, so it is a bit rich to turn round and use this particular coup to attack Turkey for its democratic deficit. Many people would argue that the current situation in Turkey is a legacy of this coup and the policies followed after it (which were related to the US policy at the time of encouraging political Islam to create a 'Green Crescent' against communism).
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:51 pm

Surely you could argue that the TRNC, whether recognised or not, is a perfect working example of a secular democratic state with a Muslim population. If it can work there, with Islam having no involvement in politics or public life but being a purely private matter, in theory it can work elsewhere. In Turkey, there has of course always been stiff resistance to secularism from a highly religious segment of the population, something that you don't find very much in Cyprus.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Kikapu » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:41 pm

Lordo wrote:every chance kikapu gets he attacks muslims like his old buddykant milti. he is blind to what extend his yank friends are in control of these governments in the arab world. to this day erdogan has done nothing to upset the yanks. so long he does what they say they dont give a shit what else he does.

in the early 60s when the tergs found out that grivas was in cyprus the americans assured them that he is there to fight communists. they were oblivious to his real agenda. it seems the yanks have never learn from their mistakes. this can be expalined by the fact that the yanks make mistakes but others pay the price.


Just stating the fact, Lordo, that Muslim nations in general and Democracy are not compatible, that's all. The proof is in the pudding as they say, no? :wink:
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:26 pm

The BBC’s Mark Lowen comments on the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe’s report on the referendum:

This was a damning verdict by the observer mission.

From biased media coverage to a misuse of administrative resources by the president and government; and from restrictions on free speech to a decision to accept unstamped ballots, which "contradicted the law"; the election observers concluded that the referendum did not fulfil international standards. So what now?

It's sure to embolden the opposition in its attempts to challenge the results. But that is an uphill struggle in a country where the state machinery is so heavily controlled by the president and his inner circle and where around 80% of the media is pro-government, pushing its interpretation of the facts.

What's more certain is that it'll shape the response to the referendum by European leaders and officials. They won't rush to congratulate a victory whose legitimacy has been placed in serious doubt. And as government supporters double down, convinced of their win, the chasm between Turkey and the west shows no sign of narrowing.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39622335
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:36 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Lets see what the secular Turks will do now.


Well, there is a protest planned for this evening in Istanbul. I hope the police do not intervene violently, that's all I can say.

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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:41 pm

A few days prior to the referendum, the Supreme Election Council made a publlic information video for the benefit of voters in which, inter alia, it states that ballot slips not bearing the stamp of the polling committee will be invalid. You can see it here (in Turkish):

http://www.birgun.net/haber-detay/ysk-k ... 55794.html
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