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Turkish Referendum

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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu May 04, 2017 5:50 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:It appears that majority of Turks living in various democratic EU countries had voted "YES" in Turkey's referendum to do away with what excuse for democracy they already have in Turkey to none. How embarrassing it is, that Turks living in democratic countries would vote for a dictator to be Erdogan in Turkey. Switzerland's Turks bucked the trend.

Do I need to say more on how in general, Muslims/Islam is not compatible with Democracy?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39619354


There was an interesting article on the BBC website into this phenomenon. The conclusion seemed to be that many Turkish migrants live in ghettos and face racism from the mainstream community, which pushes them in the direction of hypernationalism and makes strongman Erdoğan in the 'home country' appear to be an appealing figure. This is not a new phenomenon. Electoral support for the AKP has been strong in Germany and the Netherlands in past general elections.

Nevertheless, the evidence coming in is that the poll was rigged - at the very least, there exists such a presumption which can only be dispelled if the unstamped votes are looked into at the very least - so this means that the Turkish people, albeit by a smallish majority, in fact supported the democratic republic and the rule of law. So, I would suggest that democracy is compatible with Turkish society, which is largely Muslim.


Another explanation comes in an interview with leading member of the German Green Party of Turkish origin, Cem Özdemir (who is most definitely not a fan of Erdoğan). He points out that only people with Turkish passports get to vote and only about half of those entitled to Turkish passports actually have them, and the ones who don't are generally those in favour of integration into German society. In other words, those members of the Turkish community least inclined towards integration have a vote, and they are the kind of people who are more predisposed to Erdoğan's fanatic religious and nationalistic rhetoric. Also, you should bear in mind that only about half of those entitled to vote even bothered to do so.

(in Turkish) http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/koseyazisi ... rsin_.html
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Kikapu » Thu May 04, 2017 8:14 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
Kikapu wrote:It appears that majority of Turks living in various democratic EU countries had voted "YES" in Turkey's referendum to do away with what excuse for democracy they already have in Turkey to none. How embarrassing it is, that Turks living in democratic countries would vote for a dictator to be Erdogan in Turkey. Switzerland's Turks bucked the trend.

Do I need to say more on how in general, Muslims/Islam is not compatible with Democracy?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39619354


There was an interesting article on the BBC website into this phenomenon. The conclusion seemed to be that many Turkish migrants live in ghettos and face racism from the mainstream community, which pushes them in the direction of hypernationalism and makes strongman Erdoğan in the 'home country' appear to be an appealing figure. This is not a new phenomenon. Electoral support for the AKP has been strong in Germany and the Netherlands in past general elections.

Nevertheless, the evidence coming in is that the poll was rigged - at the very least, there exists such a presumption which can only be dispelled if the unstamped votes are looked into at the very least - so this means that the Turkish people, albeit by a smallish majority, in fact supported the democratic republic and the rule of law. So, I would suggest that democracy is compatible with Turkish society, which is largely Muslim.


Another explanation comes in an interview with leading member of the German Green Party of Turkish origin, Cem Özdemir (who is most definitely not a fan of Erdoğan). He points out that only people with Turkish passports get to vote and only about half of those entitled to Turkish passports actually have them, and the ones who don't are generally those in favour of integration into German society. In other words, those members of the Turkish community least inclined towards integration have a vote, and they are the kind of people who are more predisposed to Erdoğan's fanatic religious and nationalistic rhetoric. Also, you should bear in mind that only about half of those entitled to vote even bothered to do so.

(in Turkish) http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/koseyazisi ... rsin_.html


The other explanation that was made to me by someone was, that those Turks living in Europe who may have voted "YES" in the referendum, at some point in the future do intend to move back to Turkey as many have homes there already for summer use, which then would become permanent use once they move, and that, they did not want to be seen as anti Erdogan even if they are against Erdogan. I guess most of the Turks who voted "NO" in Switzerland have no intentions of going back to Turkey. I mean, why would they? In the end though, the older generation Turks are generally very conservative and do not really fit into the European society, so, one day, they will go back to their birth place of Turkey. The younger generation will do doubt stay in Europe. It is still very hard to comprehend, that those Turks in Europe who had voted democratically to do away with Democracy in Turkey is very baffling to me. Perhaps Democracy was never in them as they most likely had not voted in their adopted European countries for not being a citizen of that country, especially in Germany, as duel citizenship was not allowed for the longest time and only very few Turks today qualify for duel citizenship. In any case, the referendum was stolen by Erdogan before even one vote was cast, as ALL future elections will be stolen by Erdogan and gang. I guess this is known as "Turkish Democracy" in "Modern Turkey". What a joke!
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri May 05, 2017 11:24 am

Well, yes, I saw an interview on the BBC web page with a couple of third-generation Turkish youths in Berlin who were going to vote 'yes' and were enthusiastic about Erdoğan. Despite Özdemir's explanations, I still find it scary that people can grow up in an advanced secular democracy and not support such values in the country of their grandparents. Unfortunately the interviewer didn't inquire about their views on German politics and whether they want to see fascism return there and would be enthusiastic about another Hitler.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri May 05, 2017 11:56 am

Kikapu wrote:... In any case, the referendum was stolen by Erdogan before even one vote was cast, as ALL future elections will be stolen by Erdogan and gang. I guess this is known as "Turkish Democracy" in "Modern Turkey". What a joke!


This is the key point, I fear. Every avenue must be followed right up to the European Court of Human Rights to have this fraudulent poll annulled. If that fails, it will be naive to talk about contesting elections in Turkey ever again, at least until there is full regime change. If the Supreme Election Council can get away with making the blatantly illegal decision to allow unstamped voting slips - which everyone knows to have been bogus slips that were inserted in a stuffing operation (and I think, for somebody who criticises 'Modern Turkey' I think you must admit that this incident also provides an example of how clever the architects of the previous order in Turkey were given that they had to force the SEC to pass an illegal resolution to be able to bring off this electoral fraud otherwise the system with stamped envelopes and stamped polling slips included many well conceived safeguards to make large-scale electoral fraud virtually impossible under the rules. I think those Kemalists had an idea what they were doing) - it will be able to take further illegal decisions with impunity in the future and there can remain no trust in the polling system. What if the SEC at the next presidential election simply decrees that all votes cast are deemed to have been for Erdoğan! As far as I know, and I don't trust the November 2015 general election, nobody has disputed the validity (not in terms of the announced result failing to correspond to the actual votes cast) of any poll since 1950 - not even the 1982 constitutional referendum held when the country was under a military junta. That's 67 years of holding internationally respected fair elections, not a bad achievement for modern Turkey in my opinion, if you compare it to many of its neighbours and look at where the country has come from. It is shame to have destroyed that. Anyhow, if this poll result stands, there is no more legal or parliamentary road for opposing Erdoğan's dictatorship.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri May 05, 2017 5:44 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:Curious. I have to pinch myself to believe it. The Western press is waking up to what is happening in Turkey. A few years ago, all it ever said was that Erdoğan was a fine, upstanding Islamist democrat, and looked the other way during events such as the 2010 referendum on constitutional amendment including a dangerous change that brought the judiciary under direct political control.



The following explosive article says it all, in my opinion:

HOW DEMOCRACIES DIE: Guilty Men

By Claire Berlinski for The American Interest

Turkish democracy didn’t die all at once in last week’s referendum; it’s been languishing for years. Why did so many in the West fail to notice?

...



http://muslimworldtoday.org/2017/05/dem ... uilty-men/
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Mustiejodu » Fri May 05, 2017 9:42 pm

Once you mix religion into the mix in politics democracy or any form of governance cannot function. You only have to look at when MAKARIOS ruled. He might have been great in your eyes but you need to look at it from a bigger picture same as erdogan using and abusing religion to brain wash the backward people in turkey. No different to how GC see MAKARIOS. NOW I PUT THIS TO A TEST HOW SOME OF YOU RESPOND WILL DICTATE THE HYPOCRACY OF YOUR MIND SET.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby B25 » Sat May 06, 2017 2:33 am

Mustiejodu wrote:Once you mix religion into the mix in politics democracy or any form of governance cannot function. You only have to look at when MAKARIOS ruled. He might have been great in your eyes but you need to look at it from a bigger picture same as erdogan using and abusing religion to brain wash the backward people in turkey. No different to how GC see MAKARIOS. NOW I PUT THIS TO A TEST HOW SOME OF YOU RESPOND WILL DICTATE THE HYPOCRACY OF YOUR MIND SET.

Problem with this nonsense is that Makarios was back in the 50's 60's. The world has moved on. Comparing him to midern day Turkey is completely flawed and a strawman arguement.
Come on, lets face it, Turkey is pretty fuced up, don't you agree????
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sat May 06, 2017 1:49 pm

Mustiejodu wrote:Once you mix religion into the mix in politics democracy or any form of governance cannot function. You only have to look at when MAKARIOS ruled. He might have been great in your eyes but you need to look at it from a bigger picture same as erdogan using and abusing religion to brain wash the backward people in turkey. No different to how GC see MAKARIOS. NOW I PUT THIS TO A TEST HOW SOME OF YOU RESPOND WILL DICTATE THE HYPOCRACY OF YOUR MIND SET.


No comparison.

Christianity, and certainly Orthodoxy, is compatible with the Western Ideals of democracy, equality, respect of ownership and freedom for the individual. Makarios governing Cyprus and his Orthodox views went hand-in-hand with Democracy -> Hence why he was accused of wanting to make Cyprus more democratic than the 1960 Constitution allowed. This is what freaked out the Turks, wasn't it? The bells chiming for equality.

On the other hand, Islam is not compatible with the Western ideals - and that is fine as far as I'm concerned. Turkey is free to have an uneducated dictator governing it according to Islam. But don't pretend that is in any way comparable to (or compatible with) Western or Christian values.
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Sat May 06, 2017 3:47 pm

CHP party heavyweight, Deputy Chair and Party Spokesperson, Selin Sayek Böke, has just announced her resignation from her positions within the party, citing to a large extent the party's weak response to the obviously rigged referendum.

(report in Turkish)
http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/haber/turk ... lmadi.html
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Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon May 08, 2017 12:24 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:CHP party heavyweight, Deputy Chair and Party Spokesperson, Selin Sayek Böke, has just announced her resignation from her positions within the party, citing to a large extent the party's weak response to the obviously rigged referendum.

(report in Turkish)
http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/haber/turk ... lmadi.html


An English version of her resignation statement has appeared:

At least 50% of the electorate in the poll in Turkey on 16 April opposed the single-man regime but this will was usurped through unlawful means. The task incumbent on the Republican People’s Party is to delegitimise the illegitimate and to conduct a political struggle along with the people to turn this will expressed for democracy into reality.

To set goals and policies by way of acceptance of the illegitimate referendum result is an injustice to democracy and above all to the millions who expressed their will for democracy.

Together with redefining the parliamentary struggle in line with the new conditions of regime change to enable democracy to be kept alive, it should be part of the CHP’s duties to defend and support legitimate democratic constitutional rights outside Parliament and participate in the exercising of these rights.
Even though the obligations imposed by this duty were voiced with insistence by the party’s decision making organs, the steps called for were not embarked on as of the evening of 16 April and pursued with the requisite political decisiveness and clarity.

Moreover, the predominating approach to administration in the CHP, which should be the strongest political actor representing the will for ‘no’, has manifested itself in a tendency to provoke debate over internal party democracy and institutional structure, instead of strengthening the voice of the millions who have united on the common denominator of democracy. In a social democratic party, the duty of party administrators is not to impose political and disciplinary decisions on party committees, but to incorporate different ideas within the party into decision-making processes in a productive way and ensure that party committees function effectively.

As a politician who believes in participatory democracy and the universal values of social democracy and that these values will pave the way for Turkey to attain libertarian democracy, I do not deem it appropriate to be part of the prevailing approach to administration at the current juncture. Consequently, I resign from my posts as CHP Deputy General Chair with Responsibility for the Economy and Party Spokesperson.

From here on, as yesterday, I will continue to struggle for democracy, freedom and equality in Turkey as part of the CHP family and together with this family. I will be a partner in the struggle to bring about the Turkey of which we dream. I will continue to perform my duties in a befitting manner as Party Assembly Member and Member of Parliament to which I was elected in my conviction that CHP politics in which we do not overbear one another but grow in unison will underpin a Turkey that unites rather than disintegrates.


http://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/haber/engl ... taken.html

I see from the end of that article that she has a pretty impressive CV. OK, in these days of alt-right politics being intelligent, educated and having had a successful career as an academic and with the IMF is a serious handicap in politics. The masses in Turkey prefer a man with little education whose only talent is to be good at speaking the language of the street and swearing. Still, the tide will turn and she is only 45. If democracy is not totally destroyed in Turkey, I can see a bright future for her if one day the political process returns to electing people with the capacity and talent to do the job.
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