The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


Turkish Referendum

Everything related to politics in Cyprus and the rest of the world.

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Kikapu » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:09 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:The domestic legal process has not yet finished. The opposition CHP, its objection to the Supreme Election Council having been denied by ten votes to one (what will happen to that one man now?), has submitted a statement of claim to the Council of State this afternoon, in which it is also calling for a stay order to prevent the result from becoming final until the claim is heard. On paper, they have an open and shut case because there is a clearly-worded express provision in the Election Law that unstamped voting slips are invalid. Nobody can override that provision. Of course, the judiciary has now become a mechanism that simply rubberstamps the dictator's orders, and that is another matter. Jurists are divided over whether this can go to the Constitutional Court and also whether, if domestic remedies are exhausted, this can go to the European Court of Human Rights, and also whether the court can annul a referendum and would be prepared to take such a step that is political in nature. The referendum result is not final yet. There remains a small hope that it can be annulled through legal means.


If Erdogan is smart, he will allow the annulment of this referendum result and work harder next time to win legitimately, otherwise, Turkey will become ungovernable and possibly a civil war erupting. That's the last thing Erdogan wants. But Erdogan is only street hoodlum smart like Trump and not a true politician statesmen smart, which means he will double down on his mistakes and make things worse than they already are. Insallah!
User avatar
Kikapu
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 13541
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:18 pm

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby B25 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:11 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:The domestic legal process has not yet finished. The opposition CHP, its objection to the Supreme Election Council having been denied by ten votes to one (what will happen to that one man now?), has submitted a statement of claim to the Council of State this afternoon, in which it is also calling for a stay order to prevent the result from becoming final until the claim is heard. On paper, they have an open and shut case because there is a clearly-worded express provision in the Election Law that unstamped voting slips are invalid. Nobody can override that provision. Of course, the judiciary has now become a mechanism that simply rubberstamps the dictator's orders, and that is another matter. Jurists are divided over whether this can go to the Constitutional Court and also whether, if domestic remedies are exhausted, this can go to the European Court of Human Rights, and also whether the court can annul a referendum and would be prepared to take such a step that is political in nature. The referendum result is not final yet. There remains a small hope that it can be annulled through legal means.


If Erdogan is smart, he will allow the annulment of this referendum result and work harder next time to win legitimately, otherwise, Turkey will become ungovernable and possibly a civil war erupting. That's the last thing Erdogan wants. But Erdogan is only street hoodlum smart like Trump and not a true politician statesmen smart, which means he will double down on his mistakes and make things worse than they already are. Insallah!


I hope he sticks with that result. The west need to see what monster they created and perhaps take him down a couple of pegs.

A weaker Turkey is better for us.
User avatar
B25
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:03 pm
Location: ** Classified **

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:20 am

Kikapu wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:The domestic legal process has not yet finished. The opposition CHP, its objection to the Supreme Election Council having been denied by ten votes to one (what will happen to that one man now?), has submitted a statement of claim to the Council of State this afternoon, in which it is also calling for a stay order to prevent the result from becoming final until the claim is heard. On paper, they have an open and shut case because there is a clearly-worded express provision in the Election Law that unstamped voting slips are invalid. Nobody can override that provision. Of course, the judiciary has now become a mechanism that simply rubberstamps the dictator's orders, and that is another matter. Jurists are divided over whether this can go to the Constitutional Court and also whether, if domestic remedies are exhausted, this can go to the European Court of Human Rights, and also whether the court can annul a referendum and would be prepared to take such a step that is political in nature. The referendum result is not final yet. There remains a small hope that it can be annulled through legal means.


If Erdogan is smart, he will allow the annulment of this referendum result and work harder next time to win legitimately, otherwise, Turkey will become ungovernable and possibly a civil war erupting. That's the last thing Erdogan wants. But Erdogan is only street hoodlum smart like Trump and not a true politician statesmen smart, which means he will double down on his mistakes and make things worse than they already are. Insallah!


It is a very interesting situation. Many people think that Erdoğan has gone mad and he no longer acts particularly rationally. After the bogus 'result' he decreed had been announced, he went and prayed in a mosque in Istanbul where Ottoman Sultans used to go and pray after they had been crowned. That's the extent that he has now succumbed to illusions of grandeur.
One thing that I note is that this was a very clumsy and easily detectable way of rigging the poll. I mean, the November 2015 general election result was also very suspect and the rumour is that they rigged it through the computer system used to collate the results. With far more sophisticated means available to rig a poll, why was it done is this blatantly obvious and detectable way? I can't help wondering if he was set up. If so, who by? One of the various conspiracy theories around the 15 July coup attempt is that it was staged by Erdoğan's rivals in the AKP, partly becuase they've seen that he's gone mad and he has to be got rid of (a bit like the end of Thatcher) and partly because they will get a bigger share of the goodies without him around. On the other hand, there has also been a 180 degree about turn in the perception of Erdoğan promoted by the Western media, so maybe the West is now gunning for him. Perhaps all these news reports in the Western media, that previously remained silent about the kind of blatant duress and intimidation that has gone on in elections for years, is a kind of kite flying.
Whatever happens, this is now a watershed moment. If Erdoğan goes on to cement his dictatorship on the basis of this result that everyone knows to be bogus, he will have no more legitimacy than a dictator like Assad. Also, if this poll result is allowed to stand, you will never be able to hold a proper election again in Turkey. How can you vote knowing that the authorities can arbitrarily overstep their authority and change the voting rules after the count has started?
As to the way forward if the legal challenge fails? Well, the first little bit of post-poll activism is already taking place. The boss of the large dairy and food products Pınar announced that it would withdraw its sposorship of the Izmir football team Karşıyaka because the Karşıyaka area of izmir had the highest 'No' vote in the country (or at least was shown as such in the totally sham declared results). People are now boycotting that company's products and since they are premium products they are far more likely to be bought by the educated people who oppose Erdoğan than the ignorant masses who support him. There is a determination now to see that company bankrupted and I hope it happens. With this boycott going on, some people are starting to suggest staging a total economic boycott - simply cutting down to the bare essentials and spending absolutely as little as possible. The Turkish economy now stands in ruins after having a band of thieves in charge for fifteen years - the initial, much touted 'economic miracle' in the first years of AKP rule was actually a legacy of the good work done by Derviş Kemal, the former IMF official who was brought in by the previous government as a technocrat to sort out the economic mess the country was then in. I think such a move could have a devastating effect and there is absolutely no way they can fight it with tyranny and oppression. Can you jail somebody for not spending money? Don't forget the effect that the bus boycott in Montgomery, Alabama had and the effect that this had on ending segregation in the deep south. These are desperate times and new forms of resistance may be born. I think he has gone too far this time and it's over.
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:28 pm

Legal expert Kemal Gözler - and he is not part of Erdoğan's circle or his supporter - has written a pretty compelling article explaining why Supreme Election Council decisions cannot (unfortunately) be appealed to the Council of State, Constitutional Court or (in the case of referendums) the European Court of Human Rights:

(in Turkish)
http://www.anayasa.gen.tr/ysk-baglayicilik.html

Don't shoot the messanger, obviously (and other jurists have expressed different opinions).
If so, the only fight left is outside the legal realm.

Of course, if, as the ruling party claims, the Supreme Election Council's decision to allow unstamped voting slips was innocent, they could easily dispel all doubt by allowing for a count of them.
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:42 pm

The police intervened today in Adana against a protest by members of an Islamist foundation that had called for a ‘no’ vote in the referendum.

Image

http://www.birgun.net/haber-detay/refer ... 56559.html
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:05 am

...he will play nice, now. He will astound us with th depth of his open-mind, we will forget the brutality that brought us to this moment; (because there is an election to win in two years).

...courts will be unclogged, it will appear as though the charges against tens of thousands are processed, and that the Rule of Law is resilient, the charges dismissed in most of the cases; some will sue, and so on.

...the Press accordingly will return to a semblance of normalcy, although the ownership of the media will not change.

...he will even "gift" Cyprus to Cypriots, he will demonstrate to the Kurds that though they are not "Turks", they are Turks, and that, that recognition will be demonstrated with some degree of progress over this divide.

...he will organise to be attractive to Europe, he will cultivate the relationship he has with Putin, he will do what it takes to be a Trump ally too, what with his efforts internationally he will be regarded as a Statesman among these equals.

...he will focus on his prowess militarily, building what will be "his" Army, while building more ships, warplanes, and submarines; he will develop stronger relations within the BRIC, with Pakistan and Brazil toward this end.

...he will succeed in building confidence toward Turkey's Economy, externally, and internally, more Civil Works, though the debt will not be repaid, it will be carried.

...Britain will come into this, Britain and Turkey have a very complex history together; Erdogan will use this (to further isolate the EU in his own negotiations, perhaps supporting Britain's Brexit Agenda), Britain too will support Erdogan, where he facilitates better relations with the USA, and between themselves and Russia. Greece will also play a role, and in so doing create a regional influence with effect, which when including Italy, such a role may be expanded from the Eastern Med, to the Med. in its entirety. Indeed, as a goal in the long-run what with the good relations possible between Turkey, Israel, Egypt, Cyprus, and Greece, Britain (read: Gibraltar), and Italy, in this future, countries like Libya, Spain, and Syria, Lebanon, even Palestine, may make good candidates one day for an Agreement that includes all Mediterranean countries.

...he will build on his Legacy, now that he has the power to do so; but beware: his revenge may be to turn the world around against him, again.

...all speculation of course, but it is at this point just as possible (if we are talking about Criminal Psychopathy).
User avatar
repulsewarrior
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7611
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:13 am
Location: homeless in Canada

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:30 am

Speculation, indeed.
If you want to know what this evil man's legacy is going to be, see how history has judged other fascist dictators in the past.
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:35 am

Meanwhile, I see that the Turkish-language Sputnik is publicising a call from a CHP MP for people to start an economic boycott. This is the most serious expression I have seen of this idea so far. It is not a form of protest I have ever heard of being used anywhere before, but in theory it should be possible to bring the economy to a standstill. (If Sputnik is covering this, Putin must have fallen out with Erdoğan again).

https://tr.sputniknews.com/turkiye/2017 ... ciklamasi/
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:36 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...he will play nice, now. He will astound us with th depth of his open-mind, we will forget the brutality that brought us to this moment; (because there is an election to win in two years).

...courts will be unclogged, it will appear as though the charges against tens of thousands are processed, and that the Rule of Law is resilient, the charges dismissed in most of the cases; some will sue, and so on.

...the Press accordingly will return to a semblance of normalcy, although the ownership of the media will not change.

...he will even "gift" Cyprus to Cypriots, he will demonstrate to the Kurds that though they are not "Turks", they are Turks, and that, that recognition will be demonstrated with some degree of progress over this divide.

...he will organise to be attractive to Europe, he will cultivate the relationship he has with Putin, he will do what it takes to be a Trump ally too, what with his efforts internationally he will be regarded as a Statesman among these equals.

...he will focus on his prowess militarily, building what will be "his" Army, while building more ships, warplanes, and submarines; he will develop stronger relations within the BRIC, with Pakistan and Brazil toward this end.

...he will succeed in building confidence toward Turkey's Economy, externally, and internally, more Civil Works, though the debt will not be repaid, it will be carried.

...Britain will come into this, Britain and Turkey have a very complex history together; Erdogan will use this (to further isolate the EU in his own negotiations, perhaps supporting Britain's Brexit Agenda), Britain too will support Erdogan, where he facilitates better relations with the USA, and between themselves and Russia. Greece will also play a role, and in so doing create a regional influence with effect, which when including Italy, such a role may be expanded from the Eastern Med, to the Med. in its entirety. Indeed, as a goal in the long-run what with the good relations possible between Turkey, Israel, Egypt, Cyprus, and Greece, Britain (read: Gibraltar), and Italy, in this future, countries like Libya, Spain, and Syria, Lebanon, even Palestine, may make good candidates one day for an Agreement that includes all Mediterranean countries.

...he will build on his Legacy, now that he has the power to do so; but beware: his revenge may be to turn the world around against him, again.

...all speculation of course, but it is at this point just as possible (if we are talking about Criminal Psychopathy).


The fact that the referendum that has granted him dictatorship was blatantly obviously rigged doesn't matter, then?
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

Re: Turkish Referendum

Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:23 am

Well, it had to happen. The first journalist has now been arrested on the grounds of 'portraying "yes" as illegitimate’ - even though this is what the main opposition CHP party has declared it to be and this is the opinion of the world press!

http://haber.sol.org.tr/toplum/eveti-me ... ndi-193599

Perhaps our friend who seems to think that Erdoğan is a kind, avuncular man who is going to do lots of nice things can explan that one.
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

PreviousNext

Return to Politics and Elections

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests