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what a u turn

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Re: what a u turn

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:07 am

LondonRake:

If you could take a short break from throwing self-perceived, smart assed insults at people. Would you be kind enough to define "declined"?

Everything is relative, depends where you set the bench marks and what ‘facts’ you include ..... or don’t include.
DT's common sense comment is a classic example ..... what looks like growth is in fact a decline in real terms!

“Better than forecast growth (IMF updated projection). Better actually than the USA, Germany, Japan and France” ...... see above, where do the figures come from, what do critics say about the figures.

“Employment at a record high”. ..... But mainly zero hours or minimum wage level jobs and in the service sector. Jobs in industry, engineering and manufacturing are at an all time low.


“Interest rates cut to a record low”...... good thing for borrowers but has caused private debt to soar to all time and unsustainably high levels, whilst pension schemes are in trouble due to low returns on safe investment. SME’s still cannot get the financing easily form the banks to create growth ...... banks can make more money at less risk by funding assets.

“House prices soaring”........ it is a 'bubble' ..... house prices are assets and are in the main funded by cheap loans. i.e. debt, and often given to those that cannot afford to repay them. Sub-prime ring a bell? ..... well you are looking at sub-prime II.

“The FTSE at record highs”....... again the FTSE and other financial market valuations are assets, actually asset bubbles, driven by banks and their purchase of bonds, they contribute virtually nothing to the real economy.

“I'm just confused about your concept of the UK "declining". “..... and I think you are just confused .......... period! :roll: :D

“Come on, be honest, you never actually look into any of this stuff, do you? Far too much trouble. It's all just constant one-liner remarks.” ..... that’s rich coming from you :lol: :lol: ........ depends where you look for your information into any of ‘this stuff’........ you of all people should recognise that.

Basically, nobody has a clue what will happen with any degree of certainty ...... and those that do have a clue what they are talking about, are only found on loony right-wing, anti-American, conspiracy theory and independent information sources. People like Werner, Keen, even Max Keiser - (RT- Keiser Report) are never listened to because they don’t have a message people want to hear! :roll:

IMO: I still think Brexit was the right decision. What comes of it will be up to ...... well, take your pick! :roll:
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Re: what a u turn

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:40 am

supporttheunderdog wrote:...where the Brexiters loudly trumped the cash that was available if Britain left... But as we know has not msterialised.,


We constantly hear the mantra chanted out by the right-wing tabloid incodtrinees that 'project fear' has turned out to be a 'lie' and its advocates are 'eating humble pie' - nonsense of course, because the negative effects of leaving the EU will only be felt once the UK leaves the EU, and that hasn't happened yet. However, if we were to apply the same brain-dead logic, then the 350 million pounds per day should also have magically appeared even though the UK has not yet left the EU, and so the Brexiteers campaing slogans have equally been 'proved' to be a 'lie' and those who championed them should aslo be 'eating humble pie.'
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Re: what a u turn

Postby Londonrake » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:12 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:...where the Brexiters loudly trumped the cash that was available if Britain left... But as we know has not msterialised.,


We constantly hear the mantra chanted out by the right-wing tabloid incodtrinees that 'project fear' has turned out to be a 'lie' and its advocates are 'eating humble pie' - nonsense of course, because the negative effects of leaving the EU will only be felt once the UK leaves the EU, and that hasn't happened yet. However, if we were to apply the same brain-dead logic, then the 350 million pounds per day should also have magically appeared even though the UK has not yet left the EU, and so the Brexiteers campaing slogans have equally been 'proved' to be a 'lie' and those who championed them should aslo be 'eating humble pie.'


You are caught in a trap Tim. Project Fear was a reality. Cameron could have campaigned on a policy of the benefits of EU membership but perceived it, given a general anathema towards the Federation in the UK, as being nugatory. So, it was decided to scare people into voting to remain. If you look at the line up it's difficult to understand why it didn't work.

Nevertheless, the vote was to leave. What has happened? Absolutely nothing that was predicted in the apocalyptic Project Fear warnings.

So, the blood curdling warnings of an immediate and fundamental shock to the economy after a Brexit vote. An emergency budget. Big tax and interest increases. Cuts in pensions. Increases in mortgages. All of that paraphernalia, revealed for what they were. Propaganda.

Now, the goal posts move. It will all happen, as predicted but not immediately as we were warned but after we actually get to leave the EU.

"He cried, “Help! Help! Wolf! Wolf!” Again, the villagers rushed up the hill to help him and again they found that the boy had tricked them. They were very angry with him for being so naughty."
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Re: what a u turn

Postby Tim Drayton » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:22 am

Apparently the chancellor of the exchequer has said that there won't be tax increases - there is going to be 'tax flexibility'!
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Re: what a u turn

Postby Tim Drayton » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:23 am

Londonrake wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
supporttheunderdog wrote:...where the Brexiters loudly trumped the cash that was available if Britain left... But as we know has not msterialised.,


We constantly hear the mantra chanted out by the right-wing tabloid incodtrinees that 'project fear' has turned out to be a 'lie' and its advocates are 'eating humble pie' - nonsense of course, because the negative effects of leaving the EU will only be felt once the UK leaves the EU, and that hasn't happened yet. However, if we were to apply the same brain-dead logic, then the 350 million pounds per day should also have magically appeared even though the UK has not yet left the EU, and so the Brexiteers campaing slogans have equally been 'proved' to be a 'lie' and those who championed them should aslo be 'eating humble pie.'


You are caught in a trap Tim. Project Fear was a reality. Cameron could have campaigned on a policy of the benefits of EU membership but perceived it, given a general anathema towards the Federation in the UK, as being nugatory. So, it was decided to scare people into voting to remain. If you look at the line up it's difficult to understand why it didn't work.

Nevertheless, the vote was to leave. What has happened? Absolutely nothing that was predicted in the apocalyptic Project Fear warnings.

So, the blood curdling warnings of an immediate and fundamental shock to the economy after a Brexit vote. An emergency budget. Big tax and interest increases. Cuts in pensions. Increases in mortgages. All of that paraphernalia, revealed for what they were. Propaganda.

Now, the goal posts move. It will all happen, as predicted but not immediately as we were warned but after we actually get to leave the EU.

"He cried, “Help! Help! Wolf! Wolf!” Again, the villagers rushed up the hill to help him and again they found that the boy had tricked them. They were very angry with him for being so naughty."


So, is the NHS receiving an extra 350 million pounds per week now?
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Re: what a u turn

Postby supporttheunderdog » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:33 am

Oh but it is happening. The pound fell by about 5% and prices have begun to rise as a result. Some major Business like some banks are repositioning their head offices outside of the UK in EG Luxembourg. Do not be surprised to find jobs following. . A lot however will depend on how hard or soft the brexit is, and that depends on who needs whom more, but there is nothing done by the UK that cannot be done elsewhere in terms of financial services, moving just a few experienced people to give guidance.

Two years time and we will know more.
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Re: what a u turn

Postby Tim Drayton » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:57 am

supporttheunderdog wrote:Oh but it is happening. The pound fell by about 5% and prices have begun to rise as a result. Some major Business like some banks are repositioning their head offices outside of the UK in EG Luxembourg. Do not be surprised to find jobs following. . A lot however will depend on how hard or soft the brexit is, and that depends on who needs whom more, but there is nothing done by the UK that cannot be done elsewhere in terms of financial services, moving just a few experienced people to give guidance.

Two years time and we will know more.


Sure, but the fact remains that there was a campaign over a referendum as to whether to leave the EU and the remain side set out rationally and logically what the consequences would be, if the UK decided to leave the union. The consequences AFTER the UK leaves. This is what the right-wing tabloids have dubbed 'project fear'. The remain side shamelessly stoked up an atmosphere of xenophobia and racism, and also threw in a few lies as to good things that would supposedly follow the UK leaving the union, one of these being that the NHS would get an extra 350 million pounds per day AFTER the UK leaves the EU - although they actually confessed the day after the referendum that this was just a lie and would not happen.
So, the crucial point here is that both sets of claims were premised on another event happening first - i.e. the UK leaving the union. The key word to focus on here is 'after' defined in one dictionary in the sense it is here used as 'subsequent in time'. Two sides made claims as to consequences that would ensue subsequent in time to the UK leaving the union. This is an event that has not yet happened. Therefore, you cannot turn round and ask either side of being liars for saying that certain thins would happen AFTER the UK leaves the EU before that happens. The statement: 'so-called project fear was a lie' is in itself a lie.
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Re: what a u turn

Postby Tim Drayton » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:02 am

Even so, as you say, the mere prospect of this disastrous event is already having negative anticipatory effect. In the text that the right-wing tabloids love to leap on as an example of what they call 'project fear', the then chancellor of the exchequer Osborne in a message to voters said, among other things, that a 'leave' vote might mean that certain manifesto commitments would have to be abandoned. The current chancellor is talking about 'tax flexibility' - could this mean they are abandoning a manifesto commitment over tax?
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Re: what a u turn

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:09 am

Tim Drayton wrote:Even so, as you say, the mere prospect of this disastrous event is already having negative anticipatory effect. In the text that the right-wing tabloids love to leap on as an example of what they call 'project fear', the then chancellor of the exchequer Osborne in a message to voters said, among other things, that a 'leave' vote might mean that certain manifesto commitments would have to be abandoned. The current chancellor is talking about 'tax flexibility' - could this mean they are abandoning a manifesto commitment over tax?


Why don't you just forget the referendum and the result ..... it is history.

This is an election for a UK government to see the country through the negotiations. Unfortunately, it is not a vote for who would be the best leader to see the country through that period. I have little doubt that the Conservatives will win the election but will Teresa May be the best person to head those negotiations ..... IMO: I don't think so!

She is too highly strung, continually jerks her head to propel her message,tends to rely upon written scripts and is too quick to avoid giving answers when asked awkward questions. I also do not think she is a genuine person who actually cares about the country that much and the people even less.

Now on the other hand ...... JC is a whole different kettle of fish. He is smart and consistent, rarely shies away from answering political questions, is far better at speaking off the cull and has a far more relaxed attitude to others. He has also a long history of loyalty to his party that has changed little over the years and he has always acted in the interest of the people. Blair screwed up Labour when he create New Labour (or Conservatism in disguise) and we all know that is what destroyed the PLP.

Look at Corbyn's proposal for: Quantitative Easing for the People or really analyse his stance on defence and, although he may not appeal as a leader, he knows his stuff about running a country, just maybe not the charismatic leader that the people need but his ideas are sound.

As for Brexit? Forget all the predictions ..... because that is all they are, somebody's idea of what they think may or may not happen at some time in the future but most seem to ignore the overall picture of what is also happening in the 'Club' that the UK is leaving. :roll:
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Re: what a u turn

Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:15 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Why don't you just forget the referendum and the result ..... it is history.



I fully agree. The important thing is to do everything possible to save the country from impending disaster.
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