Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, what we are arguing about now are to me the minor details, which can be discussed. Obviously, the loans, debts, agreements etc, that the ROC has can stay with the nw state. The ROC could sign a declaration stating that this is a new state, with all the old agreements etc of the old state still in force. This is just a theoretical point and could easily be resolved in my opinion.

No these are not minor details, but rather very important "details."

Apart from this, can I get a consensus on whether people agree with the actual principle. I understand Piratis does and a few others including Big Turk agrees.

I already said that I do not agree with the principle of partition. It is irrelevant whether Bg_Turk agrees with this principle or not, because Bg_Turk is not a Cypriot citizen and as such he has absolutely no right to have a counting opinion on this matter.

The citizenship issue could easily be resolved. TCs wouldn't want to be in the Greek south, but the Turkish north obviously. So their citizenship rights could be waved on their permission. For example, it could be in the referendum question that if TCs accepted the proposal, it would mean they are no longer citizens of the south. It is as simple as that. I believe this is definately workable and fair, although I know it is not ideal - it is the best I think we can hope for, for the time-being

The Citizenship right is not a collective right that is granted to communities, so that they can decide whether to have it or not. The Citizenship right (and consequently the state's obligation to honor it,) is an individual right to each single citizen, irrespective of what his/her community decides collectively through a referendum.

[Kifeas]

Change that 20% to 18% (or 18.4% as Kiffeas said) and I could agree. Resources and coastline should also be split on this ratio though.

Besides the coastlines which I agree with Piratis should be adjusted to reflect this ratio, before determining the percentage of territory, we have to subtract from the total of Cyprus the 3% of the territory that the sovereign British Bases occupy, and then base our calculation on the 97% of Cyprus. Therefore, the 18.4% is automatically reduced to 17.8% of the territory. However, if we assume that let's say 30% of the TCs will wish to retain their RoC citizenship and remain where they are now without having to be moved (displaced,) then this percentage should be reduced by 30% also. This means that it has to become 12.5% of the total territory, and therefore the coastline should be adjusted to this percentage also.

On the contrary I believe the TRNC should not yield any territory at all. GCs that wish to return to their former homes should be welcomed as citizens of the new state in the north. Besides in view of your strict division of the islands territory in view of population, the addition of greek cypriots to the current population will justify the larger territory of the northern state.

What you believe counts and matters to me as much as my neighbor donkey's ass matters! In other words, nothing! For me you essentially do not exist, even though I some times bother to reply to some of your postings, mainly to make a case for the sake of others and not because I care what you believe and say, whatsoever.

[Piratis]

we are planning to proclaim the republic of paphos together with bir and alexios

Are you from Paphos cypezokyli? Or you just have a natural tendency to support the partitionists?

There is only one real solution: One united democratic Cyprus were the human rights of everybody are respected without any kind of racial or other discriminations.

Anything that would not create a democratic state with respect to human rights is of course not a real solution.

However between a disguised partition of the kind of Annan plan and standard partition that is proposed here, the "standard" partition is much better.

With Annan plan TCs would get 29% of land which is proportionately way more than what belongs to them. With this plan they get proportionately the amount that belongs to them: 18-19%.

The Annan plan would create something undemocratic. Some citizens would have 4.5 times more voting power than other simply because of their race. With the proposed plan we can have democracy.

With the Annan plan less amount of refugees would return. This plan would allow more refugees to return.

The Annan plan would make us bankrupt. We would have to pay 90% of everything. (for the 123 parliaments and governments, for the TCs, for the Settlers). With this plan we will avoid all those nightmares.

The Annan plan was a disguised partition that gave to TCs the benefits of partition (separate country), more land (29%) and all the benefits of unification (money, EU, work etc) and gave to us almost nothing apart from a lot more problems.

[bg_turk]

GCs that wish to return to their former homes should be welcomed as citizens of the new state in the north. Besides in view of your strict division of the islands territory in view of population, the addition of greek cypriots to the current population will justify the larger territory of the northern state.

And because those GCs have been murdered, ethnically cleansed and prosecuted in the past, in order to guarantee their safety they should be given 50% power and their own federal state within this "TRNC". Of course the name should change also because GCs do not accept to live in a state called "Turkish", Greek should be an official language etc.

When the balance of power is on your side you can impose whatever name you want on that state, and unify or annex it to whatever country you wish. But today the balance of power is not in your favor and you have to accept the political consequences of that.
Having said that I believe no ones human rights should be violated, provided these people respect the laws of the state that they reside in.
The fact that the name of that state will have turkish in it is not a violation of anybodys rights. I live in a state which is called Bulgaria despite my region beinig predominantly turkish, and I never complain about it. I am a law abiding citizen, respect the soveregnity and territorial integrity of my country, I am obliged to use bulgarian in official places and in return my fundamental human rights and some of my ethnic rights are respected. Why do I have to put up with all this? It is because we are a weak minority that cannot impose our will on the bulgarian state. So will the situation be for the turks in the south, and the greeks in the north of cyprus.

[Piratis]

But today the balance of power is not in your favor and you have to accept the political consequences of that.

It is not in your favor to the degree that you can force the illegalities that you want either.
So what you proposed is rightfully and legally rejected.

[bg_turk]

What you believe counts and matters to me as much as my neighbor donkey's ass matters! In other words, nothing! For me you essentially do not exist, even though I some times bother to reply to some of your postings, mainly to make a case for the sake of others and not because I care what you believe and say, whatsoever.

I hope one day the TRNC will give you all the legal means to restore your rights, and render all your bullshit about the "illlegalities", "human rights violations" absolutely meaningless. The TRNC has obligations only towards your most fundamental human rights, other than that it should not make any political concession whatsoever!
When this day comes you will have no choice but to get your pseudopuppet passport and be a proud citizen of the pseudopuppet.

[cypezokyli]

simon wrote:

Of course not, you're being totally stupid now. I only want reasonable suggestions.

why is the republic of paphos more stupid, than....enosis for example ?

What I say is a solution, what you say is not.

why not ?

Do you prefer us to be split as we are today with everybody's human rights being violated. What is the republic of Paphos going to achieve?

its going to give people the fundamental human right to choose with whom they would like to share their country.

Haven't you been listening to the majority of TCs? They obviously don't trust us and don't want to live with us unless they have a VETO on everything. It will not work.

i wish you would have heart the tcs, in the period 2000-04.
who said i want to live with you?

My solution will create trust, peace etc, before we can continue to move forward. You cannot re-unite without trust, and at the moment we don't have trust.

my solution as well. not only between gcs and tcs, but also between gcs we want to live together and those who dont, and the same for tcs.

Next you'll be suggesting every town shall be separate. Understand a solution, even if it is not ideal.

my father used to say, if you start a job make sure you finish it completely.

piratis wrote:

Are you from Paphos cypezokyli? Or you just have a natural tendency to support the partitionists? Wink

i asked you in another thread piratis, if you are worried from the rising numbers of gcs, demanding partition worries you, and what do you thing has caused it?
scroll back in this thread, and see how easy gcs dreaming "re-union" of the island are willing to discuss about percentages....

[Piratis]

i asked you in another thread piratis, if you are worried from the rising numbers of gcs, demanding partition worries you, and what do you thing has caused it?
scroll back in this thread, and see how easy gcs dreaming "re-union" of the island are willing to discuss about percentages....

There is a difference between demanding partition and preferring one form of partition over another when no other option is given.

Very few Greek Cypriots would prefer partition if the option of having a united country were the human and democratic rights of everybody are respected, is offered.

Unfortunately most TCs, want to gain on the loss of Greek Cypriots. This is proven from this thread as well. Even if we finally accept their dream for partition, they still do not accept to take the 18% that proportionately belongs to them. If they don't gain as much as possible on our loss they will not be satisfied!

[Simon]

cypezokyli what you say is not a solution becuase who in Paphos apart from a few people on this website is going to support Paphos being independent on its own. Paphos is full of GCs, do you think TCs will want to live in a greek dominated town? After all, they are supposedly scared of this happening. You clearly have not understood my proposition properly.

TCs and GCs would start living together once relations became normal. This is inevitable. However, what would happen in the meantime is that all property disputes will be resolved and people can stop arguing about what divides them, and once the north has joined the EU, can start talking about what unites them. When the North joins the EU, the two states will undoubtdly mix anyway.

You don't have to live with me, no-one has asked you to. You can live wherever you want, it does not bother me in the slightest.

On the citizenship issue, it would have to be resolved at a referendum. We can't go asking each individual person, I'm sorry if you think this is a violation of human rights but it is necessary to find a solution. It is not like they are no longer citizens of Cyprus, as they would still obviously be citizens of the north. The referendum is the act that could simply transfer the citizenship from the south to the north. This is a special situation and needs solutions that are not ordinary.

Your problem is, is that you want to go from A to C without first stopping at B. My solution represents B, which will provide a mechanism for us to reach C. But it must be with the agreement of both sides.

[Rude Gal]

Not that I support this partition idea whatsoever, but when you say you are not sure about the %s, do you mean to say that it has to be based on the 81.6% : 18.4% as it was the actual population ration since 1960, or it has to be based on the 83.5% : 16.5% as it is the actual land /property ownership ratio???

And I have another question to you.
Since all the TCs are legally all citizens of the RoC and the RoC alone and by itself doesn't have the right to wave their citizenship status without their consent, what if 30% of them wish to remain citizens of the RoC and thus also wish to reside within the RoC territory, shouldn't that percentage of the separate TC independed state be reduced accordingly???

Helo beautiful people just tuning back into the debate. I flicked through and not sure if Kifeas has had response to abovel. Here are my thoughts:

1. I think whether it's population or land ownership, ratios need to be something that is based on accurate information. I think there are some disputes over both figures. But once resolved, then whichever we use will be a fair solution to determine each territory's size.

2. If TCs have own recognised State, then they should be forced to choose which nationality they hold and I believe very will will retain their RoC passports/citizenship. Why should they? Those TC citizens who choose to, can already live in RoC (I believe?). The fact that few have made the shift over since the borders went down shows there is a reluctance, so I don't believe these numbers affect 1. But if it did, yes you take all these factors into account.

cypezokyli mate, (if I can call you that?), do not be too disheartened by this debate. You dream of a single united Cyprus. I dream of a world without borders. Where would we be without dreams? But sometimes we can only take small steps towards that. I don't think we should say no to this because it falls short of where we want to be. As long as we are moving forward in right direction (and sometimes we end up on a bit of detour, such is life, but everything happens for a reason...).

I have only been writing on this forum for a short while, but already have been warmed to the various characters, their passionate rants, etc. I've made several direct contacts with GCs I've met through the Forum, which could lead to becoming social aquaintences, then new friends, business partners,...This is the way life normally evolves - naturally, slowly. We all checking each other out, learning about each other, vibing with each other. Can't rush a good thing! So patience bro, if our dialogue is anthing to go by, we all moving in one direction - closer together!

Simon, you too seem like an 'on it' brother (if I may call you that - it's a Sunday loved up kinda feeling ). Your A to C analogy is bang on right. Got to get to B first - if we overreach for C we can either balls up (the consequences could be dire and make reconcilliation far harder) or never get there cos we too busy checking the trees to see the forest.

An old boss once said to me "don't let perfect get in the way of good". A two state solution is not perfect, but it is a damn sight better than the current stand-off, atangonism and polarization we all feel.