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Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby cypezokyli » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:35 am

Cyprus enjoys support regarding issues of breaches of sovereignty from many other countries with sub standard human rights records.

Are you saying that we should tell these countries to rack off until they stop running over trouble makers with tanks?


according to piratis, i dont care about human rights :wink:
as a concequence i can afford to say cooperate with anyone so we can achieve the best for us (always accoring to piratis)

the problem arises when we say : well screw dalai lamas human rights as long you care about our "human rights". if we accept that, then its hypocrisy all the way.dont you think? if we dont care about the human rights of the others, then our argument is hollow.

not to mention that if you accept the help of china i dont know why you reject the help of all the rest :wink:
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Postby Agios Amvrosios » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:50 am

1) China is NOT championing our human rights- its championing our sovereignty.In all chinese statement about the CYprus problem its sovereignty this and taiwan that , and sweesour pork fly lice (NO MSG).


2) are you saying its ok for example that Cyprus should refuse to accept help from the US and Britain because of human rights abuses that occured in Iraq and Guantanemo or sto trisanatema. I see that's the real reason Tassos ditched Straw. Eithes aha!

Ate re koumbare
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Postby cypezokyli » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:48 am

koumpare mou!

what difference does it make if china is championing our sovereighty and not our human rights? that excludes the fact that china china is one of the biggest human right violators in the world?

i am really sorry that i dont get your point.

so let me refrace : is it right to get help from anycountry - that would support us for any reason (human rights, sovereighnty, sunny beaches...) - if that country is an invador of another country ?

the answer can be :

human rights is s fundamental principle for us therefore we dont accept any help from any violator of human rights
or
so long they care about our cause and support us in any possible way, we dont care what violations of human right they are performing.

you see, i am not going to judge your answer.
i just want one!!!!
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Postby Piratis » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:54 am

the problem arises when we say : well screw dalai lamas human rights as long you care about our "human rights". if we accept that, then its hypocrisy all the way.dont you think? if we dont care about the human rights of the others, then our argument is hollow.

And when did we say "screw dalai lamas human rights"? If China helps to end the human rights violations in Cyprus this means that Cypriots support the human rights violations in China? Sorry, but your logic is flawed.

We do not support human rights violations period. Anything that would help to decrease the human rights violations is good. If for example Turkey stops violating the human rights of Kurds we will still be glad for this positive step even if they continue to violate our human rights.


then, what is the change in the balance of power that we expect, if it is not china?

There are many and unpredictable ways that the balance of power can change. When I was talking about change of balance of power I had other things in mind, which I believe are more possible and can happen much faster, than China taking and helping Cyprus.

One example in brief:

The EU accession of Turkey doesn't do very well. EU demands many changes and threatens that the accession would end if they are not made. In turkey the rich businessmen along with the European Turks want these changes to be made. The army while they want EU they do not want to loose control and they are afraid that what it is asked from them could lead the Kurds into demanding an independent Kurdistan again (they would not be allowed to simply bomb and kill them all this time). The islamists do not want to hear anything about EU, especially now that they demand so many concessions from them and hurt their pride. Meanwhile the army authority is weakened, and there is a gab of authority in Turkey that many try to fill. The whole situation becomes very unstable and conflicts brake out between Turks and Kurds. The Americans/British decide to take the side of Kurds because they don't trust the Turks anymore and they want direct control over the oil of Eastern Turkey and Northern Iraq.

This would constitute one scenario of a shift in balance of power were we could take advantage of.
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Postby cypezokyli » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:12 am

all we have to do then is just wait for it to happen. and i thought we had no plan.


i hope you see how many assumptions you make that you expect to hold.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:21 am

No, as I said this is just one scenario our of 1000s.
Between the balance of power favoring Turkey indefinitely and the power of balance switching at some point to our favor the chances of the second are indefinitely more since nobody ever in history has managed to keep the balance of power always in his favor.

In the case of the torn and easy to become unstable country of Turkey I simply predict that the balance of power will not last for long in their favor (5-30 years). Now you can say that it will take longer (100 years) and you might be right, but if you say that balance of power will never change then you will certainly be wrong.
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:39 pm

But surely this applicable to many countries if you want to play the "what if" game, this includes south Cyprus, the world could come to the conclusion that GCs do not genuinely want a solution and its constantly problem making attitudes which could bring a strong reaction from the world to recognize the north and end this headache in say 5-30 years. The rate at which cock ups are prgoressing this maybe a lot sooner than you think.

Get my drift.... :wink:
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Postby bg_turk » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:44 pm

I agree with Viewpoint. Piratis thinks that the balance of power will change in favor of GCs, not necessarily it may change in the opposite direction too.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:56 pm

Sure, it could theoretically change in any direction.

However Turkey is at about the max of the power than she can get right now and this max power didn't allow her to legalize the results of her invasion in Cyprus.

Even if the power of Turkey goes higher, it will need to become a world superpower to be able to invade and occupy the rest of Cyprus, an EU member.

On the other hand, Cyprus doesn't need to become a superpower to get back what legally belongs to us. (like Kuwait was not a superpower when it was liberated). All is needed is a situation were Turkey as a united country stops to serve the interests of the AngloAmericans. In this case it is very possible that the occupied areas will be returned to their legal owners and the RoC.

Many think that they "won the war" and that for this reason just democracy and human rights for all is not enough for them and they need to gain on the loss of Greek Cypriots. This arrogance didn't bring to them anything, and in the future it will turn against them.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:01 pm

Making Turkey the new Iraq should be our aim. Actually Turkey meets many of the requirements (Kurds with oil region, Islamists that can turn against the Americans at any point if they become more fanatical, An oppressive state that violates the human rights of its own citizens and the citizens of other countries etc). Did you know that Saddam (and even Bin Laden) used to be good American pals at some point?
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