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north Cyprus property sales

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:10 pm

Well if you are willing to wait another 3500 years until you can 'force' a settlement that is satisfactory to 'you' then so be it. Personaly I would like to see a united Cyprus in my lifetime. I am less concerned about my ancient or future distant ancestors than I am about achieving something today.


In my lifetime I would like to live in a democratic country were human rights are respected. I would also like to see a truly united Cyprus as well. But not a disguised partition were the only thing that will unite us will be the tax money that I will pay to go for the welfare of Turkish settlers. Such kind of "union" is just for the trash.

For how many 1000's of years would you be willing to inflict them?

For as long as you inflict the same suffering to us. Wasn't 30 years of occupation, 200.000 refugees and 6000 dead enough to take the revenge that you wanted? You want us to suffer more by convicting ourselves and all future generations to live in a non democratic country?

by the way did you sell you PC yet? Has the market made you realise your 'minimum price' is simply unrealistic and too high yet?


I own the PC and nobody can tell me what I should do with it. Are you going to force me to sell it for less, or otherwise steal it from me like you did in the case of our properties?
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:21 pm

Erol,

I am afraid that in the current situation, it is not just the GC's that are loosing, it is the TC's as well. The comments you made to Pirates can equally be made towards you as well.

The fact remains that he money being made in the north is not staying there! How many criminals wanted by the police in the UK or other countries now reside in northern Cyprus? These people are the ones making the mney off our backs and yours. This money can be pulled out of Cyprus faster than you can possibly imagine, if it hasn't already.

Getting on a high horse and peddling the old tired arguments will not stop the gradual selling out and the eventual Turkification of the north. If you consider yourself a Turk 1st and formost and a Cypriot 2nd then you are welcome to what will befall you!
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Postby mehmet » Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:09 pm

I suppose it is inevetible that if you have a lawyer for a president you willl seek legal means to achieve your objectives (by the way what is is Talat's 'profession'). The trouble is that realities on the ground make people see the future diffenretly. I agree with Metecyp that we don't have forever (or even 3,500 years) to wait for solution. I come back to Bananiot's question, where is this 'European solution?', am I just being impatient?.
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Postby erolz » Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:53 pm

Piratis wrote: In my lifetime I would like to live in a democratic country were human rights are respected.


but not one where the two communites have equal democratic rights as communites. Only one where individuals have equal democratic rights but not the communites - which just happens to mean, purley by coinciddence of course, that as communites the GC community will dominate over the TC one.

Piratis wrote:Wasn't 30 years of occupation, 200.000 refugees and 6000 dead enough to take the revenge that you wanted? You want us to suffer more by convicting ourselves and all future generations to live in a non democratic country?


It was not and is not about revenge. It was and is about a TC community being able to live in peace and security and in control of their own fate in their own homeland.

Piratis wrote:I own the PC and nobody can tell me what I should do with it. Are you going to force me to sell it for less, or otherwise steal it from me like you did in the case of our properties?


Well this analogy has worn thin and my principal point in the 'comparision' was to suggest to you that perhaps your 'minimum price' is too high - for a cyprus settlement and for your laptop and that perhaps this can be shown by the lack of a 'market' - anyone who wants to pay your minimum price (which in Cyprus problem terms is a definition of the TC community as a political minority within Cyprus and not as a political equal to the GC community).

However if you inist on using the analogy in this different way then you did not solely own the 'laptop'. You and I _agreed_ that you would contibute most of the laptop - say 70% of the parts and that I would contribute 30%. We agreed that its usage would 70% - 30% and that ownership would be 50% 50%. Three years into the agreement you declare that it was an unfair agreement and sieze total control of the laptop. You tell me that I can use it, but only as and when and how you see fit. After 11 years of being given almost no fair access to the laptop I eventualy took 40% of the parts out of it and refuse to return them unless we can agree a new settlement of eiother shared use of seperating the laptop into seperate parts that we will each own and control seperately.

You own your laptop and you can offer it for sale at any price. If however you actualy want to sell it rather than just offer it at an inflated price you will have to respect what the market is willing to pay. You own the RoC. If you want to 'sell' unity then you will have to respect what the 'market' (TC) are willing to pay for unity. For 40+ years the 'market' has refused your price (TC community as a political minority in Cyprus). The sggestion here is that if you really want unity then you must re asses your 'minimum price' in light of what people are actualy prepared to pay for it, just as you must do with your laptop if you actualy want to sell it. So do you really want to sell your laptop or do you actually only want to sell it if you can find someone stupid enpough to pay 'over the odds' for it?

Anyway the real reason I 'came in here' was to post some links to scanned and ocred articles from this weeks Cyprus Today (english language NC paper) that relate to the proposed changes in NC law re foreign property ownership - but I got a bit distracted :)

Anyway for info the links are here

The first is the Cyprus Today's editorial on the issue. Found here

http://www.visionmatters.co.uk/cyprus/opinion.doc

The next is a report of a meeting between NC expats and the relvant TRNC minister

http://www.visionmatters.co.uk/cyprus/m ... xplain.doc

The final one is an 'experts opinion' on the proposals

http://www.visionmatters.co.uk/cyprus/expertopinion.doc

The full text of the propsed law was also published. I do not have time right now to scan this and post it. I will be in the UK for next 2.5 weeks but will scan and post the full text of the proposal on my return, if asked to do so.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:04 pm

You and I _agreed_ that you would contibute most of the laptop - say 70% of the parts and that I would contribute 30%.


Nop, you have your properties and we have ours. Properties were not shared and you have no right to steal them.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:22 pm

Pirates,

I think that many TC's have now gotten so used to living in other peoples homes that they now consider them theirs. They don't seem to understand that what they have was taken by force and given to them.

There are many TC's who at the end of the day would not want to go back to what they had before. The main reason being that what they have now is much better than what they ever had. This seems to be the answer many TC's give when asked the question as to whether they would go back to their old homes or not. Nothing to do with security, just financial!

We have to keep insisting that the property is still ours until we get the right to have it back. Only then will the property conundrum be solved.
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Postby erolz » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:47 pm

-mikkie2- wrote: I think that many TC's have now gotten so used to living in other peoples homes that they now consider them theirs. They don't seem to understand that what they have was taken by force and given to them.


For those TC that were given property in the North in compensation for that which they lost in the south they most certainly do consider it theirs. Even so many of them were prepared to uproot themselves and their families once again to achieve a untied Cyprus.

-mikkie2- wrote:
There are many TC's who at the end of the day would not want to go back to what they had before.


Back to violence and opression. Back to living in enclaves. Back to a Cyprus where the stronger community took what it wanted from the weaker. No not many TC want to go back to that.

-mikkie2- wrote:
The main reason being that what they have now is much better than what they ever had. This seems to be the answer many TC's give when asked the question as to whether they would go back to their old homes or not. Nothing to do with security, just financial!


What a clever plan! Live as an opressed minority in fear of life and property for 11 years - as a sneaky means to in the end get more than you ever had before.

-mikkie2- wrote:We have to keep insisting that the property is still ours until we get the right to have it back. Only then will the property conundrum be solved.


You need to decide what you want. Unity or to carry indefinately crying like children 'it's not fair, it's not fair'. Simply crying like a child 'it's not fair, they are my sweets - he stole them from me' will not solve anything. Sensible discussion that accpets the past and accepts realites is the way 'adults' would seek a solution. Somehow I think you would prefer the approach of 'it's not fair, it's not fair' - no matter how pointless or futile it is or what the cost of such an approach really is in terms of never finding a solution. Did you never get told as a child that sometimes life, the world is not fair? That sometimes you just have to get on with things?
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Postby erolz » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:57 pm

Piratis wrote:
Nop, you have your properties and we have ours. Properties were not shared and you have no right to steal them.


Cyprus was shared between the two communites as equals. You agreed this. Then you decided to take all political power in Cyprus for yourselves. You had no right to do this but you tried to do it anyway. After 11 years of suffering of the TC community to this 'ideal' Turkey imposed a different solution, based on seperation. This solution was hard on you - but it could not and would not have happened if you had managed to share Cyprus with TC as you had agreed to share it.

I can have my 'old' property back - but only if I agree to your earlier theft of my communties political equality in Cyprus. Well no thanks I 'll take the property I recived in compensation for my lost property in the South and keep my political independance thanks. Offer me back my political equality that was stolen from my community and I might consider swapping my old property back with your old property. Offer it only on the terms of accepting your theft of my communites political equality and I am not interested.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:29 pm

Erol,

It is pointless trying to debate with you.

For those TC that were given property in the North in compensation for that which they lost in the south they most certainly do consider it theirs. Even so many of them were prepared to uproot themselves and their families once again to achieve a untied Cyprus.


Whose right was it to give them property in the 1st place?

And who decided to uproot the TC's in the south? Wasn't it Turkey that forced the exchange of population 12 months after the invasion? Many TC's did not want to leave their homes. But of course you will say that they were oppressed and forced to live in enclaves to justify your position.

Back to violence and opression. Back to living in enclaves. Back to a Cyprus where the stronger community took what it wanted from the weaker. No not many TC want to go back to that.


Who took what from whome? Why must you use such antagonistic language? Are people living in oppression in the south? Has every TC that has come south been oppressed? You say what suits your case. You do not consider the 10's of thousands of GC refugees. Do they not exist? Do they not have rights? Are they not human beings? Nobody is trying to take anything away from the TC's yet you keep suggesting that all the GC's want to do is to get rid of the TC's.

What a clever plan! Live as an opressed minority in fear of life and property for 11 years - as a sneaky means to in the end get more than you ever had before.


No, I was not suggesting that at all. Plenty of TC's have said that they would not want to recalim their old property becasue they have got a lot more where they are now than what they left in the South. Plenty of TC's have openly said this. Of course you will deny this.

The whole set up in the north is based on theft. If you cannot accept this basic and fundamental aspect of the probem then you cannot believe that there will ever be a solution.


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Postby erolz » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:51 am

-mikkie2- wrote:
And who decided to uproot the TC's in the south? Wasn't it Turkey that forced the exchange of population 12 months after the invasion? Many TC's did not want to leave their homes. But of course you will say that they were oppressed and forced to live in enclaves to justify your position.


You may want to blame Turkey for the forced movement of people in 75. I can just as easily blame the 11 years of GC actions that led to Turkey to intervene in 74.

-mikkie2- wrote:
Who took what from whome?


In the period 63-74 its pretty clear who took what from whom.

-mikkie2- wrote:
Why must you use such antagonistic language?


Try looking at some of the langauge used by some like Piratis before accusing me. I have tried using less antagonistic langauge but it makes no difference so why bother.

-mikkie2- wrote:Are people living in oppression in the south?


Today? Now that you have what you always wanted - a purely GC controlled state? In the past GC oppressed those that stood in the way of GC aspirations. Very little I see from some GC posters convinces me that if in a united future the wishes of the TC community were opposed to the wishes of the GC community in Cyprus then oppression and illegality would not once again be used to 'solve' the problem.

-mikkie2- wrote:Has every TC that has come south been oppressed?


Not every one but some have I believe. Even if none had suffered any prejudice or oppresion it would not be relevant. GC oppresion of TC was a means of stopping the TC community from blocking GC aspirations in Cyprus. A few TC living in the RoC does not block GC aspirations in the RoC - if anything it helps them.

-mikkie2- wrote:You say what suits your case.


and you do not?

-mikkie2- wrote:You do not consider the 10's of thousands of GC refugees. Do they not exist? Do they not have rights? Are they not human beings?


Of course I consider them. Of course they exist. Of course they have rights. Of course they are human beings. Where have I said otherwise? Because I cast some doubt on the sinserity of your concern for TC in relation to the property boom in the north then I am denying all of the above?

-mikkie2- wrote:Nobody is trying to take anything away from the TC's yet you keep suggesting that all the GC's want to do is to get rid of the TC's.


I keep suggesting that some GC want a Cyrpiot state where the TC community has no parity or equality with the GC community - a state where TC live under the political domination of GC. This is clear from Piratis repeated refusal to accept any equality of the two respective communites. In the past oppression and violence were the means by which GC sought to achieve this aim. Who knows what means they might use in the future. What is know is that the aim remains the same (for GC like Piratis at least).

-mikkie2- wrote:The whole set up in the north is based on theft. If you cannot accept this basic and fundamental aspect of the probem then you cannot believe that there will ever be a solution.


No I do not believe that and your insitance that the Cyprus problem is simply an issue of TC greed and theft is why there still is a Cyprus problem today. The TRNC exists through the exercise of Turkish force or arms - that is not in doubt or debate. That the motivation for the use of this force of arms is solely to do with a desire of TC to steal from GC in the way a robber enters your house and steals your possesions is exactly the kind of self rightgeous, self serving interpretation that makes a true solution seem nothing more than a distant dream. GC actions in 63-74 are what made the exercise of force by Turkey possible, inevitable and from the majority of TC postion a more desirable outcome than the previous 'status quo'. Continue to deny this reality if you like and continue to insist that the events of 74 were merely about TC stealing from GC if you like - but do so in the understanding that you perpetuate and prolong division by doing so.
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