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Bottom up approach

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Alexandros Lordos » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:39 am

boulio wrote:hey alex again good work,are you preparing another survey to be conducted and if so,will it have more raw questioning like territorial adjustments and the british bases?


Hi boulio, I am planning a new survey at the moment, but I am not sure yet if it will have questions regarding the specific content of a solution plan. The main focus will be on confidence building measures, and on progress that could imminently be achieved in 2006 in order to pave the way for a settlement.

In this spirit, any suggestions that you have - or anyone else has for that matter - for questions I could ask would be strongly appreciated. :)
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Postby cypezokyli » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:55 am

a few that were proposed over and over again:
1. missing persons
2. truth commissions
the wounds should open and get cleaned
3. mixed schools, or at lest introduction of turkish and greek in schools. even students meeting at regular basis.
4. opening the stupid ledras
these are a couple, with no political "loss", since loss is the most important thing. i ll try to remember a couple of more
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:21 pm

cypezokyli wrote:a few that were proposed over and over again:
1. missing persons
2. truth commissions
the wounds should open and get cleaned
3. mixed schools, or at lest introduction of turkish and greek in schools. even students meeting at regular basis.
4. opening the stupid ledras
these are a couple, with no political "loss", since loss is the most important thing. i ll try to remember a couple of more


Please do, this is good stuff :wink:
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Postby The Cypriot » Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:35 am

Alexandros wrote:
In this spirit, any suggestions that you have - or anyone else has for that matter - for questions I could ask would be strongly appreciated.


Any chance of somehow incorporating a question on how best to approach the redrafting of the Annan Plan to make it acceptable to both sides? With options on whether it should be left solely to elected representatives or whether a re-drafting committee should be established to support the process, with options on how best to construct this committee.

Incidentally, tacit approval from elected representatives for the 'Bottom up' approach may not be beyond reach now.

Mr Talat - who announced last week he was prepared to consider absolutely any proposal from the Greek Cypriot side - is unlikely to reject such an initiative.

Mr Papadopoulos, in turn, has indicated that there would have to be substantial revisions to the current Annan Plan before it could eliminate Greek Cypriot concerns. A first indication that the Plan is not off the table.

In other words, the perfect stage on which to have "fools rush in where angels fear to tread".

Any thoughts?
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Postby Tony-4497 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:07 am

Because the TCs themselves are demanding that they be given the full option to reclaim their properties in the south if they wish to do so, while the GC refugees are also demanding that they be given title deeds for the refugee houses they are currently using, which of course are largely built on TC land. Thus, any new proposal solution for the property issue will look very much like "option D" in my May 2005 poll, ie full return of all properties that a refugee does not intend to keep through exchange of equivalent properties.


Alex

TCs are indeed demanding that they get all their properties in the non-occupied areas back - AND they got that in the Annan plan.

GC refugees would indeed like to receive title for their refugee homes in the south, but you are making a big mistake by assuming that they are prepared to accept that IN EXCHANGE for forfeiting their properties in the north.

I personally know many relatives and others who would like to get title to such refugee homes, but there is NO WAY they would give up their rights to their occupied properties in return.

The vast majority, if not all, of GC refugees demand the return of all stolen property and full return rights. This means that Turkey would never be able to allow all those who wish to return (OR have the right to return sometime) to do so. If Turkey allows this, GCs would be likely to become the majority in the north in the near to medium term, something Turkey will NEVER allow. I am surprised that after all this research you don't seem to be able to realise this - can you explain your rationale which contradicts this? And also why Turkey has not even considered this idea seriously to date?

Accordingly, the only two scenarios realistically open to GCs and TCs are those of:
1. limited return rights and 2 separate states loosely connected at the top (i.e. Annan plan without substantial modifications)

2. 80-20 solution

When all parties involved realise this is the case, the solution to the Cyprus problem will be found, and I believe it will be number 2.
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Postby Tony-4497 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:32 am

Mr Papadopoulos, in turn, has indicated that there would have to be substantial revisions to the current Annan Plan before it could eliminate Greek Cypriot concerns. A first indication that the Plan is not off the table.


Papadopoulos has submitted the detailed changes we require, following effective consensus at the national council.

Accordingly, there is no reason for anyone else to be drafting changes, particularly people without the knowledge required to assess the impact of complex constitutional provisions now and in the long-term.

And in any case, as for your suggestion for the EU/UN to select people who will re-draft the plan.. I think that ONLY those who voted OXI at the referendum should be eligible to work on such a project.

The people who voted yes accepted the plan as it was, so they would accept anything that is "as good" - and this could never result in a plan that is acceptable to the GC community.
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Postby The Cypriot » Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:22 pm

"Papadopoulos has submitted the detailed changes we require, following effective consensus at the national council."

Goodness, I must have missed this. Can someone confirm that this has indeed happened the way Tony-4497 describes? I thought that this was the problem. That detailed changes hadn't been forthcoming from the Greek Cypriot side. What are these detailed changes?

"I think that ONLY those who voted OXI at the referendum should be eligible to work on such a project."

I think it's best that any such re-drafting committee (with expert, independent help, eg. from representatives from Belgium or Switzerland who have knowledge of the relevant complex constitutional provisions) get together in the spirit of co-operation - trying to build understanding and consensus. While clearly the 'No' views must be taken into consideration - from both sides - they cannot be allowed exculsively to dominate proceedings as progress is likely to be stifled; the way progress towards a solution between the leaderships continues to be stifled.

Just a thought. You know the famous story about Solomon, threatening to slice a baby in two because two women were fighting over it - do you believe the real mother would have been prepared to accept an 80-20 cut in her favour?
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Postby Tony-4497 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:45 pm

Goodness, I must have missed this. Can someone confirm that this has indeed happened the way Tony-4497 describes? I thought that this was the problem. That detailed changes hadn't been forthcoming from the Greek Cypriot side.


No need for sarcasm here.. your position seems to be identical to the Turkish one (or the DISY/EDI one) - i.e. asking for our required changes even after we have submitted those in full detail.

Just a thought. You know the famous story about Solomon, threatening to slice a baby in two because two women were fighting over it - do you believe the real mother would have been prepared to accept an 80-20 cut in her favour?


I think you may have gotten your analogies wrong here.. the above story is particularly relevant to the Annan plan, which indeed sliced the baby into two.. and allowed it no chance of survival..

the 80-20 solution resembles more a situation of accepting to cut a small part of, say, an infected leg so that the baby can actually survive.

It would of course be ideal if we could have an entire healthy baby, but in my view the only alternatives for the baby are (1) slicing in the middle and near-certain death (Annan plan) and (2) losing a limb but surviving (80-20).. and I would choose (2) every time.
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Postby boulio » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:57 pm

It would of course be ideal if we could have an entire healthy baby, but in my view the only alternatives for the baby are (1) slicing in the middle and near-certain death (Annan plan) and (2) losing a limb but surviving (80-20).. and I would choose (2) every time.


Nice Analogy Tony,However do you think the t/c would go a 80/20 split?and its not just about territory either however,other things must come into the equation like will the new state in the north still retain such a large turkish army?will there still be trade and interaction between the two new state?will the northern state be let into the EU immediatly or will it have to start things over,and will there be derogations against the greek state of the south?
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Postby Michael » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:15 pm

It is quite laughable reading the contributions to the “Bottoms Up” debate. Of course if the “intellectuals” came forward and where allowed to redraft this dodo, or doodoo of a plan then overnight all our troubles would just vanish. It beggars’ belief the arrogance of these people! They put themselves above the elected representatives of the R.O.C and the people. I don’t think there is a so called Cypriot intelligentsia. Who and where are they ? Most of the debate appears to be blinded more by hatred of our Government then trying to find a solution. I think intelligentsia would do well to get back to what they know best, sitting in the smoking common rooms of the Cyprus University moaning about their derisory salary.
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