Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alasya]

"Now in Cyprus we have a lot more Biritish, Russians, Shri Lankies etc than those minorities. Foreigners in Cyprus (not including those minorities) are about 10% of the population".

When discussing the minorities of Cyprus, do we mean people who do not have citizenship of either the TRNC or the Republic of Cyprus living, working or studying in on the island?

Are Sri Lankans, Russians British ex-pats apart of Cyprus? Or are they foreigners who without the need of citizenship of either state in Cyprus can live on the island and enjoy most of the rights that Turkish and Greek Cypriots enjoy. Minus voting in national elections etc...

I would argue that Sri Lankans, Russians, British ex-pats and others living, working or studying on the island without citizenship of either of the two Cyprus states cannot be considered a ethnic minority in political terms nor in mathematical terms as they are not part of the Greek or Turkish Cypriot population. This is because they are not citizens!

These groups of people are either Ex-patriots, foreigners, guest workers, students, short or long term residents or non-naturalized immigrants but not citizens.

Minority does not just mean belonging to a small number of people, its not just a mathematical term, it has important political meaning.

[Piratis]

We Turkish Cypriots are a nation

Dear friend,

Because Turkey has power to kill, rape, and occupy foreign lands this doesn't mean that you have the right to say that the land you stole by displacing 200.000 people, a number higher than your 18% minority, is your "nation".

You have all the right to feel unique. So are the African, or Hispanic Americans. All minorities are unique and different, and thats why they are minorities. Our Maronites and Armenians for example, also have their own language, tradition, culture etc. Does this make them a "nation"?

mi·nor·i·ty: smaller socially defined group: a group of people, within a society, whose members have different ethnic, racial, national, religious, sexual, political, linguistic, or other characteristics from the rest of society
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18616 ... ority.html

You compare Turkish Cypriots with the French speaking people of Quebec. Let me ask you something: Did the people of Quebec took the land they currently live by forcefully displacing 1/3rd of the population of Canada?? Also, don't forget that French lived in that area for as long as the British did. What right do you have to say that the lands we lived for 3000 years are part of your nation and not part of our nation? The right of arms?

I believe Turkish Cypriots are more than 18% today. We are more likely to be between 24-30% of the entire population of Cyprus

Hmm, do you count the Turkish settlers in this number? If you don't, then the number you give has nothing to do with reality since Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus today are much less than what they have been 30 years ago. If you do include Turkish settlers this is quite funny, because in this same post you tried to show how unique Turkish Cypriots are compared with everybody else.

[brother]

There you go did you all get that, well piratis you have always got something to say what do you say about that then

[Alasya]

Firstly, I did not steal any land from anybody, I am not a thief! If you have evidence that I am a thief present it, otherwise refrain from making such accusations.

You should consult the rules of this forum:

"Personal attacks are not allowed - Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully without insult and personal attack".

No Turkish Cypriot is guilty of this charge. We left behind and lost properties in the South. We were refugees too, we had property and possessions that were looted from our homes too. We suffered both the effects of the civil unrest before 1974 and the Turkish invasion too. Turkish Cypriot were impoverished after the invasion that girls as young as 15 would sell their bodies for sex to Turkish soldiers for a bar of candy. Please don`t forget this!

You probably already know that a certain Mustafa Arif (whose name has been spilled all over Cyprus` newspapers lately) still cannot return to his home in the so called "free areas" despite winning a court battle.

Because your folk have been here for 2000 / 3000 whatever years, does that mean that I have no right to this island? this is my homeland too and the birthplace of my ancesters as far back as I can remember. So you were here first, big deal? Surely whats important is who is here now!

You mentioned some details about war crimes committed by Turkey in Northern Cyprus. I am a Turkish Cypriot for the last time, not a Turk. You should address a Turk with these charges.

I am NOT going to defend Turkey for anything, Turkey is another Turkish -speaking country as far as I m concerned, a northern neighbour who most Turkish Cypriots are rightly suspicious of. I do sympathize with the suffering inflicted on your people by Turkey, but this has nothing what so ever to do with Turkish Cypriots identifying themselves as a nation. (not a nation-state, the two are not synomynous)

You see, even if the TRNC did not exist, the Turkish Cypriots, even in a unitary Cypriot state would still identify themselves as a nation. We don`t necessarily need our own state to be a natin. Most nations in the World do not have their own state, an obvious example the Kurds.

The Maronites and Latins on the other hand are officially recognized as a minority in Cyprus, the Turkish Cypriots are generally considered by all concerned, as one of two main communities of Cyprus. If you read "Cyprus: In Search of peace" by the minority rights group who are based in the UK, they make this point very clearly. They argue that Turkish Cypriots reject the term minority as an inadequate description of its status.

This view has been reflected in all UN proposals from Galo Plaza in the 1960s upto Kofi Annan 2004 where t/c are regarded as "partners" in a future Cyprus government. This is even accepted in principle by the Greek Cypriot leadership, who even put their signiture to the London-Zurich agreement, accepting this fact.

So why are you raising this question now in 2004?

Its quite remarkable, I ve never seen anywhere else T/Cs put in the same boat as Maronites and Latins, except by you and noname75. I thought the 1960 agreement and the last 40 years of talks established that we are one of the main communities of Cyprus. Are we going back in time?

You asked me a question. Did the French Canadians steal land? -
Well, actually they did, and they also annihilated the native Iroquois, and Amerindians through disease, warfare and deprivation. These indegenous people lived there for thousands of years before the settlers from Western France arrived in their new trading post-New France. But however tragic the suffering of the native Americans is, it cannot prevent the fact that the descendants of these colonialists from France, developed through hundreds of years into a nation with a common sense of identity.

Similarly the Turkish Cypriots who are not all of Turkish descent have developed too in 500 years into a nation with a strong sense of its own distinguished identity. Surely if we say we are Turkish Cypriots, a different nation to Turkey, then that is our prerogative. Nobody can tell us who we are.

Why do you feel so threatened by Turkish Cypriots calling themselves a nation?

It`s funny because the Turks behave the same way when Kurds talk of their nation and identity. They sneer, they close their ears, they try to tell them who they are. Nobody other than the Turkish Cypriots have a right to speak for the Turkish Cypriots. Identity is what we make it, not what you make it.

[devil]

It should never be forgotten that the genetic makeup of TCs is much closer to that of GCs (both essentially traceable to Phoenician origins) than to Anatolians. For that matter, the DNA of GCs is much closer to that of TCs than to Greeks. In reality, the TCs and GCs are really one people, their difference being largely historical due to language, religion and culture, engendered not by the 1974 invasion but by the 16th c Ottoman one. At this time, some of the people, over a couple of generations, simply adopted the language and culture of the invaders in order to better communicate with them. I'm not saying there was no admixture of blood; of course, there was some, but the number of Turks administering the country was from, say, ~1650 to the late 19th century when the Brits took the Ottoman mandate, was quite small, relying on Cypriots to do most of the work.

I suggest therefore that Cypriots are Cypriots, whether they speak Turkish or Greek. It would be better to simply remember this and not use any adjective. The Cypriots are one, single, race and are neither Greek nor Turkish, even if some speak Greek and some speak Turkish.

Flame away!

[Piratis]

There was no personal attack. Turkish Cypriots owned 12.5% of the land before 1974. Then from one day to the next they controlled 37%.
So how can you say that land was not stolen? Whats for sure is that our refugees didn't donate this land to you.

Then, its not enough that you stole 3 times as much as your owned, you have the nerve to demand more. So if you have 6% of land in the free areas, you want to keep the 37% that you stole just for yourselves, and then at the same time get that additional 6% back, so that your 18% minority will now control 43% of the ground!!

Because your folk have been here for 2000 / 3000 whatever years, does that mean that I have no right to this island? this is my homeland too and the birthplace of my ancesters as far back as I can remember. So you were here first, big deal? Surely whats important is who is here now!

I never said that you have no right in this island. You are the one who tells me that I have no rights on my island. Because my island is the whole Cyprus and not half.

Well, actually they did, and they also annihilated the native Iroquois, and Amerindians through disease, warfare and deprivation.

ok, and what you want to do is the same, right? Too bad for you that we are not annihilated. The war is not over, and the occupation of Cyprus by Turkey will end in one way or another.

Why do you feel so threatened by Turkish Cypriots calling themselves a nation?

Because they created this "nation" philology as an excuse to keep what they stole.
Unlike Kurds, that have been living in Kurdistan before Turks came to our area, The Turkish Cypriots were always spread all over the island of Cyprus and they have never owned a specific region of it. Take any similar example in any country and you will see that in all of them such people are defined as minority.

You have the right to believe and say whatever you want. If you want to believe that Turkish Cypriots are a nation, do it.

What you have no right to do is violate human rights of others and illegally occupy part of the Republic of Cyprus.

[Alasya]

You getting confused!

You seem to find it difficult to distinguish between Nation and nation-state.

na·tion-state (nshn-stt)
n.
A political unit consisting of an autonomous state inhabited predominantly by a people sharing a common culture, history, and language.

I think maybe we

na·tion (nshn)
(Anthropology)
n.
A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: "Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity" (This is what I mean!)

I wrote about Turkish Cypriot identity and our self-perception as a nation, but you have turned this into a territorial issue. Blaming the Turkish Cypriots for the continued division f Cyprus is short-sightedness considering recent unprecendented events.

You forget the fact that tens of thousands of Turkish Cypriots bravely took to the streets in protest at the division of our island. You seem to forget that 65% of Turkish Cypriots voted for the ONLY reunification plan of Cyprus, so that most refugees could return to their homes and so that Cyprus would be a single state!

YOU are under the impression that Turks and Turkish Cypriots are synomynous. If you want to avoid making enemies among Turkish Cypriots I would keep this ignorant view to yourself. This is the view Greek and Turkish nationalists want everybody to believe.

Go back and read my message in full if you dont understand, maybe go look a few words up in a dictionary. My dear Piratis, I will not repeat myself, I have better things to do with my time.

But I will say this twice, I am NOT a thief! Stop making slanderous accusations.

[Alasya]

QUOTE "I suggest therefore that Cypriots are Cypriots, whether they speak Turkish or Greek. It would be better to simply remember this and not use any adjective. The Cypriots are one, single, race and are neither Greek nor Turkish, even if some speak Greek and some speak Turkish".

While I agree that we are neither Greek or Turkish, I cannot bring myself to call myself a Cypriot alone at this embryonic stage in the peace process. Cyprus is currently divided into two states and the prospects of a settlement are slim, and will be worsened if Turkey is given a date next month.

My opinion is drawn from the lesson of young Turkish Cypriots who prematurely called themselves Cypriot before the referenda. These brave people held olive branches in their hands and the girls, some of them the prettiest on the island said "Ben yeni kibrisim" I am the new Cyprus.
But the Greek Cypriot NO vote (which was seen as huge slap in the face by my people) crushed their hopes and left them embarassed.

If Cyprus were a single state, then I might toy with the idea of calling myself a Cypriot for the sake of unity, but not until.

[Piratis]

Question: Are the Hispanic Americans a nation? Because they also "share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language;"

Question: Are the Hispanic Americans a minority?

As I said before you can call your community whatever you want. What you can not do is violate human rights and illegally occupy part of Cyprus.

So if we return to a legal situation, with no violations of any human rights then I really wouldn't have any problem even if you called yourselves a super nation.

You forget the fact that tens of thousands of Turkish Cypriots bravely took to the streets in protest at the division of our island. You seem to forget that 65% of Turkish Cypriots voted for the ONLY reunification plan of Cyprus, so that most refugees could return to their homes and so that Cyprus would be a single state!

Oh really? So the TCs went to the streets because they wanted the GC refugees to return to their homes? Why they were silent for 30 years then?
Come on. We all know that TCs went to the streets not because of peace or unification, but because of EU and their own prosperity.
The plan they voted "yes" for was a partition plan that its aim was to legalize the results of the invasion with the added bonus of EU membership and money for TCs, and would make it much easier for Turkey to enter the EU.

YOU are under the impression that Turks and Turkish Cypriots are synomynous.

No, I never said this. But do the TCs support the division of Cyprus, yes or no? If you don't declare it clearly and stop supporting partition plans.
I have nothing against Turks or Turkish Cypriots except from the fact that most of them support the occupation of my country.

[devil]

QUOTE "I suggest therefore that Cypriots are Cypriots, whether they speak Turkish or Greek. It would be better to simply remember this and not use any adjective. The Cypriots are one, single, race and are neither Greek nor Turkish, even if some speak Greek and some speak Turkish".

While I agree that we are neither Greek or Turkish, I cannot bring myself to call myself a Cypriot alone at this embryonic stage in the peace process. Cyprus is currently divided into two states and the prospects of a settlement are slim, and will be worsened if Turkey is given a date next month.

My opinion is drawn from the lesson of young Turkish Cypriots who prematurely called themselves Cypriot before the referenda. These brave people held olive branches in their hands and the girls, some of them the prettiest on the island said "Ben yeni kibrisim" I am the new Cyprus.
But the Greek Cypriot NO vote (which was seen as huge slap in the face by my people) crushed their hopes and left them embarassed.

If Cyprus were a single state, then I might toy with the idea of calling myself a Cypriot for the sake of unity, but not until.

You have totally misunderstood me because this thread has degenerated into N. v. S. I would remind you that it is about ethnicities and not about politics, otherwise it should be in the Cyprus Problem Forum.

I repeat what I said before, there is no such thing, ethnically speaking, as a Greek Cypriot or a Turkish Cypriot, because they all belong to the same ethnic group, no matter who likes what. Therefore Turkish Cypriots do not form an ethnic minority, which is what this thread is all about. They are part of the majority, like their Greek Cypriot brothers.

So, please, do not bring politics into a debate where politics, language, religion and culture do not belong. Otherwise, there is a nasty word for what you are trying to do, no matter which side of the green line you come from.

I am old enough to remember what life was like before the Brits fomented the great divide between TCs and GCs and I have vivid memories of how, on the whole, except for a few troublemakers, both communities cohabited in the same villages, often sharing the same coffee houses (think how many villages have both church and mosque, often in adjoining buildings). They just got on with their lives to the common good. Although it was rarely documented, think how many mixed marriages there were, just as, today, GCs and TCs in London marry together. OK, I agree, it was often kept quiet because of the face lost at a family level, but don't you think the offspring of these liaisons smooth over what small ethnic differences there may be, if, indeed, there was pure Greek or Ottoman blood on one side or the other. In the 400 years between the Ottoman invasion which defeated the Venetians, not the Cypriots and the troubles of the mid-1950s which was the touchpaper that caused the Brits to force the linguistic separation, don't you think there was some assimilation of even those of direct Anatolian descent, let alone the Cypriots who "became" Turkish Cypriot simply because they learnt the language of the administration out of expediency.

So, I maintain there is only one major ethnic group, based on genetics, in Cyprus and they are found on both sides of ther green line.

No politics, please.