Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

That's not the issue Piratis! Read carefully.

Thanks for pointing that out.

The point here is this. If we're absolutely sure that Talat was in Cyprus and tortured the civilians during the invasion, then you have every right to think whatever you like about him. But if you're not sure, if you just heard this from one mysterious guy and nobody else confirmed it, then how can you be so sure that he was in Cyprus? And how can you be jumping to conclusions about him with just accusations? That's how you form your positions, by believing in accusations?

The second point is about Papadopoulos. I don't care if he knows how to hold a gun, or if Afxentiou was an idealist. He was an EOKA member just like Denktas was a TMT member. And according to that GC journalist I mentioned before, he was the second man, after Yorgacis. Both of these organizations were terrorist organizations and just like you don't trust Denktas due to his TMT past, don't expect TCs to trust Papadopoulos.

And I need to make a distinction here. It's ok for Denktas to be in power in the north because TRNC has no obligations for GCs. Moreover, Denktas will be out of power soon in the north anyway. But it's not ok for the president of the RoC to be a past EOKA member. The president of RoC has obligations not only towards GCs but TCs as well and the president of RoC has to be trusted not only by GCs but TCs as well. Now, you may claim that there are no TCs in the RoC, so you're just doing what you have to do on your own. That's fine. If you want to keep the RoC as a GC republic, that's your problem. But don't expect TCs to return back when a past EOKA member sits at the top of the RoC!

[brother]

Feel sorry for me because i am a turk? i have not even worked out what that means.

[Bananiot]

I didn't think you would. With some people the word turk is synonymous to evil. They have been brought up to believe this. This was "downloaded" into their brain from the tender age of the elementary school or even kindergarten. The turks are considered the age-long enemy and this psychological background had a lot to do with the result of the referendum. To these people I normally say that their biggest enemy is the turk they have inside their brain, meaning they are slaves to their prejudices. Unfortunately, the decent GC’s are now on the defensive, because we are ruled by a bunch of racists who have taken us back fifty years.

[brother]

Thanks for explaining bananiot, it is a pity that these sort of practices still exist and they are the real traitors to the gc population.

Question: Many times i have heard the name 'thanasis' mentioned in conversation, what was this person? what did they stand for? etc. any info appreciated.

[Bananiot]

As far as I know, Thanasis is just a name with no special significance.

[Piratis]

According to Bananiot, the 76% of Greek Cypriots are not decent. Anyways, we will answer to him in the best way in democracies: our vote. Bananiot got his answer, and he will get it many more times.
Too bad for him that his kind is not able this time to take the guns and enforce their will on us.

Metecyp, EOKA was not a terrorist organization. Some of its members were criminals, but this doesn't make the organization itself a terrorist one. Most of Greek Cypriots participated in EOKA in one way or another, and the cause of EOKA was a noble one. This is because, as I wrote before, according to the UN, Cyprus as a whole should have had the right to decide in a democratic way what we would do. One of the options was independence, another option was integration to another country.

On the other hand, TMT had an illegal cause, the results of which we can see today: Stealing land from the legal owners, and illegally occupying part of the island.

So TMT = EOKA B = terrorist. But not the original EOKA.

That's not the issue Piratis! Read carefully.

I read very carefully. You said that Afxentiou was not an idealist, and thats an issue for me, when this guy gave his life fighting against the colonialists. So it was the issues, and I gave the answer.

As far as Talat goes, I couldn't care less what he did in the past. Many did, and non is punished. Is Denctash going to be punished now? How about Karras of Disi? No!

So since nobody is getting punished anyways, what I care about is what the position of the Turkish side is, and not who presents this position.

Actually it would be much better to simply discuss positions and not the persons that happen to present this positions, otherwise we are committing the ad Hominem fallacy.
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/s ... busive.htm

Maybe it is time to start discussing matters of essence, instead of throwing mad at others to discredit them? (I admit I did this too sometimes, but only as a reaction to such mad throwing by others)

[metecyp]

Metecyp, EOKA was not a terrorist organization. Some of its members were criminals, but this doesn't make the organization itself a terrorist one. Most of Greek Cypriots participated in EOKA in one way or another, and the cause of EOKA was a noble one. This is because, as I wrote before, according to the UN, Cyprus as a whole should have had the right to decide in a democratic way what we would do. One of the options was independence, another option was integration to another country.

According to you, EOKA had a noble cause because the majority supported it but TMT didn't have a noble cause because it was a minority movement. So it doesn't matter the means to reach to that "noble" goal? You don't care that so many innocent people (on both sides) died due to EOKA?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighther. Maybe this could apply to EOKA before 1960. Maybe I can consider that EOKA was not terrorist organization before the independence. But how about the period 1963-1974? Was EOKA nonexistant in that period? Did TCs kill themselves in that period? Did EOKA change its ultimate goal, Enosis, in that period, and turned into this peace-loving organization that I'm not aware of?

You said you consider EOKA-B terrorist. What was the goal of EOKA-B? Enosis, right? What was the goal of EOKA? Enosis again. What's the difference then? One wanted Enosis faster than the other, that's the only difference and that makes one terrorist and other not? I also wonder if you would call EOKA-B people terrorists if they succeeded what they attempted in 1974.

How do you expect TCs to trust to live in a majority consisting individuals like you that still consider EOKA as a good organization with noble cause? You say "Forget the past, look to the present and future" and I'm looking to the present and future but what I'm hearing from you is nothing but a restatement of past mistakes.

As I always said, I accept my share of responsibility but I'm not going to sit here and listen someone to put all the blame on me and declare their mistakes as "noble causes". How would you like if I said "Taksim was just a reaction to Enosis to preserve our Turkish identity and TMT was formed to defend Turkish Cypriots against EOKA, therefore they're both noble."

[Piratis]

According to you, EOKA had a noble cause because the majority supported it but TMT didn't have a noble cause because it was a minority movement.

No, it had a noble cause because this cause (union with another county) was something that according to the UN all colonies should have the option to do if they choose to do so. Greek Cypriots had asked for such thing since the 30s. Colonization is not right according to the UN (and I hope we all agree with this). So the right thing to do was to held a referendum and ask all Cypriots what they want. Unfortunately our "masters" wanted to keep us as their slaves and they didn't want Cypriots to decide in a democratic way what they wanted.

Since it is well known that the majority of that time supported the Union with Greece, this means that this union was a rightful demand that was oppressed by the colonialists. Therefore, the cause of EOKA (union with Greece) was a noble one, since it had as an aim to get rid of the oppressors that restricted Cypriots from their self determination.
Notice, that the cause of union with Greece does not involve the violation of any of the human rights of TCs, the stealing of their properties etc.

So it doesn't matter the means to reach to that "noble" goal? You don't care that so many innocent people (on both sides) died due to EOKA?

As I said, Greek Cypriots had asked for union with Greece since 1930s. If the British held a referendum at that time, then everything would have been solved democratically and nothing would have happened. I condemn the killings of innocents. As I said many EOKA members were criminals and they were not fighting just against the enemy (colonialists) but against others also (communists mainly). Such criminal killings are 100% unexcused. But not all casualties were innocents. Many of them were the colonialists or people that supported them. If they wanted to keep us as slaves I believe we have every right to react, and therefore the killings of those is regrettable (because a human life was lost) but it is also excused 100%. In any case, I agree that an armed straggle was probably not the best thing to do. Here I am not saying that EOKA actions were the best. Actually if you ask me now, that I am able to look back and judge things better, yes, I can say that EOKA should have never existed. But this doesn't make the cause of EOKA wrong. Because the cause was a noble one, and I hope I managed to explain why I believe so.

You said you consider EOKA-B terrorist. What was the goal of EOKA-B? Enosis, right? What was the goal of EOKA? Enosis again. What's the difference then?

The difference is that before 1960 they didn't allow as to govern ourselves. We were slaves. We couldn't vote our leaders. So before 1960 we didn't had a way to decide in a democratic way for our destiny. Democracy was prohibited for us. EOKA was the will of the majority, that found an abnormal way to be expressed because the normal (democratic) way was prohibited by the colonialists. Before 1960 the rule of force was applied by the colonialists in Cyprus, and therefore we had every right to react in a similar way.

But after 1960 a democratically elected government was ruling Cyprus. Now this government, along with the parliament were the ones that represented Cypriots. We were not oppressed by the colonialists anymore. EOKA B went against democracy. They didn't go against the colonialists like the original EOKA, they went against the legal Cypriot government. They had a minority opinion, and they decided to enforce it with the power of weapons against the democratically expressed will of Cypriots. Thats the HUGE difference between EOKA and EOKA B.

I also wonder if you would call EOKA-B people terrorists if they succeeded what they attempted in 1974.

Yes, I would because they went against democracy.

As I always said, I accept my share of responsibility but I'm not going to sit here and listen someone to put all the blame on me and declare their mistakes as "noble causes".

I didn't put all the blame on you.
And maybe you took me wrongly. Sometimes acting in the wrong way, even for a noble cause, is a mistake. So I didn't say that EOKA was not a mistake, I believe it was. But that doesn't mean that the cause (and I keep emphasizing this word) was not right.

So to brake it down:

The cause of union with Greece when the great majority of Cypriots supported it = Rightful demand - noble cause. (but I am ready to listen to your objections (and I understand some are quite serious) , but this objection can not be: "you had no right for enosis" because we had it.


Formation of EOKA = noble cause (fight against colonialists - union with Greece (see above)) but a mistake.

Criminal actions by EOKA = criminal actions are not part of the cause, and the people that committed crimes are criminals and should have been convicted.


I hope I am clear.

[MicAtCyp]

Talat never asked for all the positions held by the TC's in the Central Government to be administrative. It is shear lunacy to even suggest such a thing.

What are you talking about, were you following the news yes or no? When all the people he presented were directors, what position did you expect them to have, that of a typist?
And furthermore did you know what Talat answered? he said I don't care I am allowed 1500 employees these are my employees. If you have a problem, then increase the number from 5000 to 8000 and I will supply you with lower stuff too. And yes I agree with you thats shear lunacy . Do I need to tell you who the lunatic is?

It never adopted them, it just reported the claim.

Bananiot, it was on a main page!! Don't waste my time to prove you wrong once more. I already spent a lot of time proving you wrong on the matter of the son of Sampson, who you said is a fascist who would not shake hands nor say goodmorning to a TC like his father. I am not supporting this idiot young man, but that was just an argument to show you how misinformed you are, and how you base your beleifs on impressions rather than facts.

And by the way I heard the "Society for the protection of the Cyprus donkeys" got $180, 000 (? ) from the Americans to promote "yes" at the referendum. Do you happen to know who the president of this society is, by any chance? Is she Kaitoula Clerides? Mana mou re!

May I remind you once again you DID_NOT answer my question.

These people feel sorry for you, because you are a . . . turk.

and then says

With some people the word turk is synonymous to evil.

Why do you avoid to say clearly that by "these people" you mean the GCs of this forum.
You are wrong! And you make me sick!

[Bananiot]

Plain simple:

1. Talat never asked for all TC government employees to occupy administrative positions
2. The son of Sampson NEVER went to the north.
3. Politis would be the last newspaper in the plantation to adopt the nonsense about Talat.
4. Leave Kaitoula Klerides alone.
5. I was not referring to people in this forum whom I do not know. I do not know you and I find it at least strange that you interprete eveything I write as though they concern you. Have pity on us, we have other things to worry about.
6. Empathy does tend to make people feel sick.
7. I sympathise with you.

Yours truly
Bananiot