Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

I wonder if those who suggest that UN Guarantees were made available are perhaps referring to the following UN statement .Particular attention should be drawn to the last paragraph where all expenses by the UN and the Greek and Turkish Mainland contingents in joint UN operations are to be borne by Cyprus.
The entire plan is flawed with so many areas where dissent and contention were likely to erupt causing havoc on our island.
APPENDIX D
MATTERS TO BE SUBMITTED TO THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL FOR DECISION
I.
Pursuant to the terms of the Comprehensive Settlement of the Cyprus Problem, the Secretary-General of the United Nations shall, upon certification by him of the Foundation Agreement and the finalized Annexes thereto, request the Security Council to take decisions to enter into force simultaneously with the Foundation Agreement, in which the Security Council would:

1. endorse the Foundation Agreement and, in particular;

a. take formal note that any unilateral change to the state of affairs established by the Foundation Agreement, in particular union of Cyprus in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession, is prohibited; and

b. acknowledge the political equality and distinct identity of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots and the equal status of their {component states} in the State of Cyprus; and

2. prohibit the supply of arms to Cyprus in a manner that is legally binding on both importers and exporters;

3. decide to maintain a United Nations peacekeeping operation in Cyprus, which shall remain so long as the government of the {common state}, with the concurrence of both {component states}, does not decide otherwise, and shall be authorized to deploy and operate freely throughout Cyprus with the following mandate

''to monitor the implementation of the Foundation Agreement and use its best efforts to promote compliance with it and contribute to the maintenance of a secure environment; and in particular:

a. to monitor and verify compliance with the security provisions in the Foundation Agreement, including:

i) the dissolution of all Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot forces, including reserve units, and the removal of their arms from the island;

ii) the adjustment of Greek and Turkish forces and armaments to agreed equal levels;

b. to monitor and verify compliance with the provisions in the Foundation Agreement pertaining to the police of the {common state} and {component states}

c. to use its best efforts to ensure the fair and equal treatment under the law of persons from one {component state} by the authorities of the other;

d. to supervise the activities relating to the transfer of areas subject to territorial adjustment;

e. to chair, and provide administrative support to, the Monitoring Committee to be established under the Treaty between Cyprus, Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom on matters related to the new state of affairs in Cyprus;

f. to implement its mandate through, for example, conducting patrols and establishing positions and roadblocks, as well as receiving complaints, making inquiries, presenting facts, giving formal advice and making representations to the authorities."

II.

The authorities of the {common state} and of the {component states}, as well as the Greek and Turkish contingents stationed on the island, shall cooperate with the United Nations operation. The cost of the operation to the United Nations shall be borne by Cyprus.

[cypezokyli]

militiades what exactly is it that you mean by UN guarantees ?
why would the above be not-satisfactory (if adopted by the SC) and what more would you like to see in them ?

[miltiades]

Cypezokyli , you must appreciate that in order to bring about a solution , the majority of Cypriots must be comfortable with the core of such a solution and must be reasonably secure in the belief that such a solution would be workable , be seen to be fair , and above all taking into account the fact that the majority view the Turkish army not as interventionist but as occupiers, the fears that abound are real . what if Turkey did not meet its obligations , who would ensure that commitments agreed would be met.
The UN ROLE WOULD BE THAT OF A MERE OBSERVER .
I have very liberal views as perhaps you may have noticed , however , as I stated earlier I don't give a damn if the T/Cs made up not the 50% of the police force as per the plan , but 99% ,bearing in mind that again the majority is justifiably disturbed at the disproportionate numbers. I'm not . But I would most certainly strongly object entering a police station in my country , the Island of Cyprus and having to show respect to a foreign flag.
The plan was a shambles from the start. It creates two states each with their own flag , national anthem , even own roads , and Cypriot government buildings flying the Greek or TURKISH FLAGS. IN OTHER WORDS DOUBLE PARTITION , BURY FOR EVER CYPRUS.How long do you honestly think the majority of Cypriots will go along cheerfully , but compulsarily saluting the flag of Turkey , or the minority saluting the Greek one. Schools would be forced to teach the two official languages , I frankly don't see the Greek parents anxious to encourage their kids to learn Turkish and vise verse.
Just consider for the first 3 years , 2 Presidents !! and thereafter a new President every 10 months !!!
I can not fathom what motivated the formulators of this plan .
Had the plan been accepted it would have been a matter of time before it collapsed with serious intercommunal troubles and 400000 troops involved as well.
Finlay would any one care to point the part of the plan that embraces reunification for our divided Island ?
I believe the Annan plan can lay the foundations for a solution , but it needs work , a lot of work.

[cypezokyli]

miltiades, i didnot ask an analysis of the AP.
you have expressed your concerns about the guarantees , and I asked you what you propose in order for those guarantees to be improved. if the question was not clear I apologise.
so once again : on this particular aspect of the AP (and not all the rest) , what is it that you dont like, and what do you propose in order to become acceptable for you?

[miltiades]

The removal of the 1960 treaty of guaranties ( The rest of the 1960 agreement is now defunct )
The incorporation of International gurantees led by America , Britain , The UN and Europe .Most definately not guarantees by Turkey that it will adhere to agreements signed, you must see the concerns of the majority and support must be forthcoming in addressing these valid concerns. In all I

[Bill]

Why can't we have a unified Cyprus where both the TC's and GC's own the WHOLE of the Island, as well as other ethnic groups in Cyprus, for eg, the Maronites, Latins, Armenians etc... Or is it just me who thinks this??

Peace!!

Not a cat in hells chance -- Turkey has always seen occupation of the north of Cyprus as needed to secure a feeling of security on it's south coast .

They would have prefered the whole island but realised they couldn't justify this.

Pre 1960 the British were in control and there was no immeadiate threat as they were sympathetic towards Turkey.

Cyprus with Greek majority sympathetic to Greece became an unbearable threat to Turkey -- and the rest is history .

Bill

[miltiades]

...continue ... Pressed the wrong key.
The people of Cyprus have suffered a great deal over the years . To force a solution that the majority are inclined to reject in the short term would not be conducive to long term stability believe the main issue here is SECURITY.
Find an acceptable solution to this very real issue and I believe the rest will fall in line , the property issue can be addressed .I posted earlier the ridiculous situation regarding Road ownership , and though I haven't posted as yet , the issue of freedom of movement by all Cypriots in all of Cyprus. The recognition by CYPRIOTS THAT WE ARE AN INDEPENDENT NATION AND NOT AN EXTENSION OF EITHER TURKEY OT GREECE.
Turkey must play a large role in addressing the real concerns of the majority of Cypriots. Equals politically YES, but the majority is still the majority , and this majority will have to be made to feel secure without the tread of further violence and wars.

[Kifeas]

I wonder why there are Greek Cypriots that still claim the Annan plan was a worth taking deal that shouldn’t have been rejected, and why there are GCs that are still trying to explain why it was not so, even 2 years after the plan was rightfully trashed in the dustbin, and since during the past 2 years everyone had amble time to review it carefully and discover what a "sell-out" it would have been for the GC community, had it been adopted. As they say, the devil is in the details, something which excuses those that voted for it, since it was impossible to see all the details and more importantly analyze and interpret them accurately in such a short period of time before the referendums.

If I was asked to describe or evaluate the Annan in just one sentence, I would say that it was worst than complete partition on the same territorial basis that the Annan plan provided plus compensation for the lost GC properties in the north. So bad it was! Why? Because it was (A. plan) essentially the same thing as above (complete partition on the basis of 29% plus compensations,) plus that we would have had to dissolve the RoC that we now control exclusively, reduce the non-occupied areas (south) into an ethnically based Greek Cypriot Nation /State, and then form a 50%-50% power sharing Confederation with the other ethnically based and owned Turkish Cypriot Nation /State that we would have conceded to have been established on the 29% of our ancestral homeland. The Annan plan formula would have given to the Turkish side the goods and benefits of both worlds, i.e. the exclusive and absolute ownership of the north 29% of our country, plus to share with the GC majority the international representation of Cyprus.

At least, with a 29% partition plus compensations, we would have still been on the same denominator as the Annan plan, but we would have retained the international representation of the RoC that we currently have alone, and we wouldn’t have to share it with anyone (especially not with Turkey through the settlers that would have remained.)

In fact, if one looks at the territorial adjustments that the Annan plan provided, what was meant to be returned to the GC “nation /state,” constituted the scrappiest parts of the now occupied territories. All the parts and areas which the Turkish /TC side wanted the least, were allowed to be returned, and they kept the very best 29% of the currently occupied areas, including 47% of Cyprus’ best coastal areas, so that Turkey can have an absolute control and a free ride of the entire sea area separating her from Cyprus, and even the sea area between East Cyprus and Syria.

No GC would have been able to return in the north, because by definition and by default they were not meant to be regarded as real constituents of that part of Cyprus in which their ancestors have live and existed for centuries, but only as newcomer immigrants moving into a foreign country and would have been required to go through a “naturalization process,” and they wouldn’t even have the right to any credible cultural freedom, education in their language, etc, etc. In a sense, they would have been required to become turkified in order to properly function as constituents of that part! Consequently, they wouldn’t want to return as permanent residents -perhaps as holiday makers, and they would have all gradually sold even the disputable 1/3 of their properties that theoretically was going to be returned to them.

The Anglo-Americans, the UN and the Turkish side invented the so called “virgin-birth” approach, hypothetically to by-pass past psychological barriers that created obstacles to the reaching of an agreement between the two communities, but in reality the ultimate goal was to cancel and dissolve the current international status of the RoC, and create in its place two ethnically based nation /states and a confederation between them, out of the blue!

Is it so hard to realize the above? Just read carefully the plan, the foundation agreement and the constitutions of the two “constituent” states! I said it many times, and I will repeat it again. Absolutely no Greek Cypriot that knows, respects and honors his reach and long lasting historical existence in Cyprus, should have ever dared to even consider placing his signature under such a plan, should he have had time to read and analyze it carefully!

[miltiades]

Kifeas wrote:
"2 years everyone had amble time to review it carefully and discover what a sell-out it would have been for the GC community, had it adopted it. "

I agree totally , but please allow me to make one addition to the above statement.
It would have been a sell-out not only for the G/Cs but also so for the 18%T/Cs who would have thrown away the one more opportunity they now have to participate in the efforts , that no doubt will again surface, in order to find a workable solution , a solution that would not be doomed to fail from the start and subsequently lead to more strife on our island. The no voters did every one a service in rejecting this plan that had as its blue print its own failure.That would have given Turkey a wonderful opportunity , once again as a guarantor power to intervene.
No thanks .

I would like to ask My Turkish Cypriot brothers , would they trust EOKA B to guarantee their security , the answer of course is a positive NO. Well brothers don't ask your countrymen to trust Turkey.

[Socrates]

Kifeas analysis is full of crap and I don’t have any mood to answer. About the settlers 70 000 were living and as long time is passing this will be worst. And the properties issue was balanced and we will not ever be able to establish a better agreement since the ECHR kicked us and since they’ve start this building orgasm. Morhou for example was in the returned areas under GC authority and now they start to building there.

As the guarantees you still try to find reasons to excuse our stupid decision.

Turkey had the right to interfere at 63 and the international community didn’t let them even with the agreement of 60 alone we was secured. At 74 we’ve invite them to come after we’ve totally destroyed the constitution. If we are so stupid and do that again then they have the right to interfere again.

But the 60 agreement was not adopted exactly like it was because there was a security valve that secures us even more because to interfere they must take agreement of the UN.

The above voting of the SC has nothing to do with the 60 issue and the security valve that it was on the plan.