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Do we think the term "solution" in the wrong way?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

The solution should be based on universally accepted principles (such as democracy and human rights) as they exist in all other democratic countries.

yes
13
93%
no
1
7%
 
Total votes : 14

Postby Kikapu » Wed May 03, 2006 2:52 pm

Those who are under 40 years old, only know two seperate States now, so a Swiss model will probably suit them fine and each year that goes by, this % will get larger and larger. Pirates makes the "two states" solution modeled after the USA, and that's what I belived for a long time . People from both sides are already settled in their own respected areas now, so why move them again. Why not re-draw the new borders, taking into account habitable and inhabitable land to conform to the size of their population from both sides. At the end of the day, after 46 years of back and forth, one side will gain/lose some more olive trees and some more grape vines than the other side. I hope it was worth all the troubles.
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Postby Piratis » Thu May 04, 2006 1:25 am

Those who are under 40 years old, only know two separate States now

I guess you refer to Turkish Cypriots under 40 years old. They are the only ones that know 2 separate states in Cyprus. ;)

People from both sides are already settled in their own respected areas now, so why move them again.


Well, thats the case if the place you were resettled is better/bigger than what you had before. But if you were forced out of your nice big home into a shitty tiny refugee housing then you would most definitely want (and have the right) to return to your own property.

So people should be given the land that legally belongs to them back, and then if they want to resettle in some other place they can simply sell the property they legally own and buy property in a different place.

As I said the government could help in this process to make it easy for TCs to sell there properties in a state B and buy properties in a state A in order to have a TC majority in state A.

The end result of this would be the transformation of RoC into a USA type of federation with the added component of bi-communality (since each community will be the majority of one state) without violations of human and democratic rights.
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Postby Kikapu » Fri May 05, 2006 2:41 am

Piratis wrote:
Those who are under 40 years old, only know two separate States now

I guess you refer to Turkish Cypriots under 40 years old. They are the only ones that know 2 separate states in Cyprus. ;)

People from both sides are already settled in their own respected areas now, so why move them again.


Well, thats the case if the place you were resettled is better/bigger than what you had before. But if you were forced out of your nice big home into a shitty tiny refugee housing then you would most definitely want (and have the right) to return to your own property.

So people should be given the land that legally belongs to them back, and then if they want to resettle in some other place they can simply sell the property they legally own and buy property in a different place.

As I said the government could help in this process to make it easy for TCs to sell there properties in a state B and buy properties in a state A in order to have a TC majority in state A.

The end result of this would be the transformation of RoC into a USA type of federation with the added component of bi-communality (since each community will be the majority of one state) without violations of human and democratic rights.


Pirates,

I mean every person since 1974 + approx 8 years old (a child ) ( 32 years since 1974 + 8 years old = 40 ) both GCs and TCs when they had to leave their homes and move either North or South. You're not telling me that under 40 GCs do not know that there is a seperation, are you ?

Let me use the term North and South Cyprus just for this explanation. In the North you have 99% Turks and 99% Greeks in the South. So each side hold the majority and more than likely they feel comfortable and safe. Then those that want to move and live in the "other side" can do so by returning back to their homes, and those that wish to remain with their own people ( North or South ) can choose to sell their properties or rent them out. There should be a complete freedom of movement if they wish to do so. I believe after so many years of living either in the North or the South, most will remain amongst their own people. This will automatically create two major areas in Cyprus, TCs in the North and GCs in the South, much like the French, Italian and German areas in Switzerland . People will make the choice as to where they will want to live, just like in Switzerland. Given the fact that there's going to be some past resentments and language barriers, since I doubt the GCs and the TCs kept up learning each others tongue since 1963, they will simply stay where they are, but it will be their choice.
Hence you will have your States A and B.
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Postby Alexis » Fri May 05, 2006 12:11 pm

Let me use the term North and South Cyprus just for this explanation. In the North you have 99% Turks and 99% Greeks in the South. So each side hold the majority and more than likely they feel comfortable and safe. Then those that want to move and live in the "other side" can do so by returning back to their homes, and those that wish to remain with their own people ( North or South ) can choose to sell their properties or rent them out. There should be a complete freedom of movement if they wish to do so. I believe after so many years of living either in the North or the South, most will remain amongst their own people. This will automatically create two major areas in Cyprus, TCs in the North and GCs in the South, much like the French, Italian and German areas in Switzerland . People will make the choice as to where they will want to live, just like in Switzerland. Given the fact that there's going to be some past resentments and language barriers, since I doubt the GCs and the TCs kept up learning each others tongue since 1963, they will simply stay where they are, but it will be their choice.
Hence you will have your States A and B.


I like the sound of this solution and it makes a lot of sense. Being relistic, most people know that the refugees will not all get their properties back, although some kind of compensation is in order. In addition we have the problem of settlers and foreigners who have bought refugee property as well as exprpriation of property by state. A solution like this, provided some kind of compensation is guaranteed would solve a lot of these problems. Who pays the copensation is the difficult one. There is another thread where this is being discussed, but the general consensus is that Turkey should pay compensation for GCs and the GC state for TCs. My personal feeling on all this is that possibly only half the compensation for the TCs should be paid by the GC state given that at least half of the displaced TC refugees fled after the Turkish intervention in 1975 in exchange for GCs from the north, although I realise that this is a contentious issue that should of course be debated. In addition, the voting rights of cypriots within the two states should also be debated. I am of the opinion that local voting rights should be given to everyone so they can have an influence over what happens in their local community. Local issues are usually very mundane and hence tend not to polarise the community along ethnic lines. Issues which are more contentious such as policing and education can be delat with separately. These are all issues to be discussed in a fully comprehensive solution.
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Postby Piratis » Fri May 05, 2006 8:25 pm

I mean every person since 1974 + approx 8 years old (a child ) ( 32 years since 1974 + 8 years old = 40 ) both GCs and TCs when they had to leave their homes and move either North or South. You're not telling me that under 40 GCs do not know that there is a separation, are you ?

They know what everybody does: that there is separation due to the Turkish occupation.

So each side hold the majority and more than likely they feel comfortable and safe.

I disagree with this. Most definitely our refugees that were forced to live in some shitty refugee housing do not feel comfortable.

Then those that want to move and live in the "other side" can do so by returning back to their homes, and those that wish to remain with their own people ( North or South ) can choose to sell their properties or rent them out. There should be a complete freedom of movement if they wish to do so.

This almost what I said with one difference I will explain in a while. There are also some assumptions:
1) The two states will be joined together in a USA kind of federation (as we agreed earlier)
2) That both states will be Cypriot states (not Turkish or Greek) This means they would both treat their citizens equally regardless of their race and both Greek and Turkish would be official languages in the whole Cyprus.
3) That the whole Cyprus (which will include the 2 states) will be part of EU and will respect the human rights of their citizens.
4) that basically the only difference between the 2 states will be that one will have a GC majority and the other one a TC majority.

I believe after so many years of living either in the North or the South, most will remain amongst their own people. This will automatically create two major areas in Cyprus, TCs in the North and GCs in the South, much like the French, Italian and German areas in Switzerland .

I do not share your belief that most will choose not to return. If the refugees are allowed to return and live in an environment that is safe (and this will be the case if the assumptions above are met) then many refugees will choose to return, but of course not all.

In Switzerland there was not ethnic cleansing and refugees, so thats a very different case in respect to this issue.

Therefore I agree with what you proposed with the only difference that the size of each state should not be where the cease fire line is today, but be drown in a way that the A (north) state is about 18% and the B (south) state is about 82%. If we don't do that, then it is very possible that if a big amount of GCs decides to return to their own homes that state A will also end up with a GC majority and the end result would be 2 states controlled by GCs.
If we base the size of the states on the size of the population it will be certain that as long as most TCs choose to live separately from GCs we will have a separate TC controlled state in Cyprus.
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Postby michalis5354 » Fri May 05, 2006 8:50 pm

It is really impossible for either side to move once again to either North or South . Bizonality need to be preserved and this can only be achieved if there is a restriction on the freedom of both sides to move to North or to the South.
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Postby Sotos » Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 am

It is really impossible for either side to move once again to either North or South . Bizonality need to be preserved and this can only be achieved if there is a restriction on the freedom of both sides to move to North or to the South


:shock: :shock: :shock: NAZI ALERT :evil:
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Postby michalis5354 » Sat May 06, 2006 4:20 am

:shock: 8) :shock: 8)
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Postby michalis5354 » Sat May 06, 2006 4:47 am

Restrictions on relocation not movement this is what I mean! Otherwise a settlement will be very costly !
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Postby Sotos » Mon May 08, 2006 3:49 am

michalis5354 wrote:Restrictions on relocation not movement this is what I mean! Otherwise a settlement will be very costly !


ok. But it would be better if there are no restrictions. Why it would be more costly without restrictions?
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