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Do we think the term "solution" in the wrong way?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

The solution should be based on universally accepted principles (such as democracy and human rights) as they exist in all other democratic countries.

yes
13
93%
no
1
7%
 
Total votes : 14

Postby cypezokyli » Tue May 09, 2006 1:40 pm

if i may interupt , it happens actually quite often (when we do not jump on tcs with our "compliments" ) that the tcs do not rank bizonality as their most important option. what they are interest and in now way are willing to bargain are their communal rights.
ofcource bizonality , will exist in any solution proposal , but it is possible to achieve way better conditions than the AP concerning residence without big objections from our tc brothers.

besides , given the current realities a mass gc population flooding the north in case of a solution exists only in the dreamworld of nationalists. in the short run , we will have defacto two zones , and it is going to take decades for having mixed populations besides nicosia and perhaps famagusta.

what is missing is the negotiations part.
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Postby michalis5354 » Tue May 09, 2006 2:33 pm

My point of view is always clear Alexis.You also failed to see the other point of view. Your views were neither clear to me and hence I asked so may questions to clarify things. I believe you do not believe in Bizonality and this is the reason you insist on a unitary mixing model! There are pros and cons in any model. What we have in real world are successful and unsucessful models. Our model should be based on frameworks that have proved to be successful in real life. And Bizonality has not been proved to be a bad idea !
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Postby Alexis » Tue May 09, 2006 6:40 pm

What I wanted from you, michalis, was a definition of bizonality. My point was that the principle of 'bizonality' is not something you can look up in the dictionary, in fact it is principle that is unique to the situation in Cyprus (look it up on google to see what I mean). Further, if you look, the principle of bizonality that was agreed in 1977 actually meant different things to the two parties. This was the point I was trying to make. Your argument was based on 'preserving bizonality' so I was trying to work out what exactly the 'principle of bizonality' meant to you. Eventually we got there, but it took a little time (please also look back at the posts and you will see that you never actually defined bizonality as you understood it to me). Whether I agree with the principle the way you have defined it (which for the sake of argument we can agree is the correct definition) is irrelevant. If that principle is what we agreed in 1977 then so be it, we as a community will have to negotiate along that constraint. So, yes you are right, I object to the principle of bizonality if that means I as a Cypriot am permanently blocked from settling anywhere in my country, but I also realise that in the interests of a solution perhaps this is something I can live with, so no I don't insist on a mixed unitary model as you put it, I just think we can be a little more imaginative in producing a solution which does not permanently restrict people in any way and at the same time means as little upheaval to the lives of Cypriots. It is for this reason that I agree with you that it is more than reasonable that the vast majority of refigees should get compensation given the realities on the ground, but perhaps we can find a solution that does not polarise the two communities in the way that I believe a permanent restriction on settlement might.
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Postby michalis5354 » Tue May 09, 2006 7:24 pm

Bizonality is a clear concept and means only one thing that the two parties will not be mixed but live separately in each separate zone! Neither in Google or anywhare else you can find a concrete description on bizonality. I am not going to ask you to change your opinions Alexis . Keep your opinions and I will keep mine but respect other people opinions and do not try to distort arguments to make your point be justified. It was not myself who intervened in the convesration we have had previously and accusing me of forcing a principle to the GCs without their approval. It was you who intervened in the first place.

Because the Turkish point of view seeks Bizonality this does not mean that bizonality as a concept is something bad . In my point of view it is not bad at all!

I dont understand how the GCs will compromise on Bizonality when there is nothing wrong with it as a concept. As I said earlier those that will not get their properties back they will get a Fair compensation in return and I ask what is wrong with that ? If you are not free to re locate in the North , neither the TCs will be free to relocate in the SOuth This is a FAIR balance . Nothing in life you have Full Freedom only in HEAVEN.
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Postby Alexis » Tue May 09, 2006 9:00 pm

It was not myself who intervened in the convesration we have had previously and accusing me of forcing a principle to the GCs without their approval. It was you who intervened in the first place.


Hi michalis,

Apologies if I have offended. I do not recall ever accusing you of anything,
certainly not of forcing a principle on the GCs without their approval, perhaps I came across wrong. Please quote where I have done this and I will apologize wholeheartedly.
If you feel I have distorted your arguments then again I apologise, but I don't recall ever doing this. I will admit that I may have misunderstood your arguments earlier, but I think it is evident from my posts that this was the case.

Finally you have given me a definition of bizonality. I kinda reached this conclusion a few posts ago, but was still confused as to what was meant by this. IF this was actually agreed in 1977 then of course we must stick to it, but again from what I have read the 1977 agreements were at a much higher level which fell short of defining bizonality the way you have and left the details of freedom of residence open to discussion.
My belief is that the principle of bizonality as you define it would not be beneficial to reunification. You haven't forced this principle on me as a person and I still hold my opinion as you do yours. We already have bizonality, so my point was there is no difference between that and what we have today. I respect your opinion, but please don't put words in my mouth. I do not disagree with bizonality simply because it is sought by the Turkish Cypriots, I simply feel that it will not serve a unified Cyprus well.
There are very few countries in the world where there is not complete freedom of residence, and what you will find is that those countries are either communist or run by oppressive regimes. Whilst you may feel permanent restrictions on freedom of residence are necessary I consider them alien and un-natural in this day and age. Now please feel free to have your opinion but also respect mine.
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