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Do we think the term "solution" in the wrong way?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

The solution should be based on universally accepted principles (such as democracy and human rights) as they exist in all other democratic countries.

yes
13
93%
no
1
7%
 
Total votes : 14

Do we think the term "solution" in the wrong way?

Postby Piratis » Wed May 03, 2006 12:47 am

Many times the "solution" of the Cyprus problem is regarded to be some kind of agreement that would change the current status in Cyprus into another status with the signatures of the two sides.

If for example the blackmail and the threats on Greek Cypriots were successful and the majority of GCs had voted "yes" to the Annan plan then this would be considered by some as the "solution" to the Cyprus problem.

The fact is however, that just like 1960, any kind of forced agreement that it is not based on democratic and other universally accepted principles, is only part of the problem and not the solution.
If for example I place a gun on your head demanding that you sign something, then the contract you were forced to sign has as much validity as if I forged your signature.

It is a total waste of time to negotiate "solutions" that are not based on these universally accepted principles. How can violations of human rights and racist discriminations be considered as a solution for anything?

Therefore the first step is an agreement between all sides that the final solution to the Cyprus problem should be a true solution that will create in Cyprus a normal democratic country like all the rest, without human rights violations and racist discriminations.

If this first step is agreed, then we can proceed with further steps in this direction and design a plan that will lead us (after several transitional periods) to the desired result.

If we do not agree on this first step, then any negotiations are a waste of time and any "solutions" that will result from such negotiations not only they will not be a true solution to the problems of Cyprus but it could possibly create even more.
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed May 03, 2006 3:31 am

Yes I think we do ! There is no Perfect model in real life and searching for this Perfect may not be the right way to go! This is what I have stated in a previous message. There are sucessful Federal and confederal systems and failed unitary states in the real world.

I am afraid Papadopoulos is searching for the Perfect solution. Such solution does not exist.

They are the people who will make a plan to work and not the other way around. Of course no one said to accept anything and everything. This is not what I am saying. Just a Perfect solution does not exist. There are pros and Cons in any model.
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed May 03, 2006 3:35 am

What do you mean in other democratic countries Piratis? Switserland isnt a democratic country? Are you ready to accept the swiss model for example?

I am looking forward to your answer!
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Postby Sotos » Wed May 03, 2006 4:08 am

I don't think he asked for the perfect. Democracy and human rights are basic rights not luxuries.
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed May 03, 2006 4:10 am

My question was clear Sotos and do not come with these generilisations that lead to an endless cycle!

Would you accept the Swiss model for Cyprus? THis is a clear question and I expect a clear answer? Not generilking and recycling all the stuff again and again.

Looking forward to yours answers!
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed May 03, 2006 4:14 am

Yes Sotos and you claim that Democracy and Human Rights Do not exist in Switselrland?
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Postby Piratis » Wed May 03, 2006 5:21 am

Michalis, the Swiss confederation was created by what has been separate city states that joined together. It was not created by ethnically cleansing the population of one unified area and splitting that area into separate cantons.

The closest we can get to the Swiss model is if Cyprus is split into several cantons. The TC cantons being the villages were TCs were the majority. Is this what you suggest?

So no, the Swiss system does not violate the human rights of the Swiss people and the Cyprus system should not violate the human rights of the Cypriot people. Is your question answered?

I have never excluded a federal solution as a solution that can meet the universally accepted principles of democracy and human rights.

As I have suggested before, Cyprus could be made of 2 states. State A of 18% and State B of 82% of land. Then the government could subsidize TCs to buy land and live in State A. If most TCs choose to live in state A then in practice state A would have a TC majority (even if all GC refugees return) and therefore it would be controlled by TCs.
Then the powers of the two states and their relationship to the central government could be similar to the one of the USA Federation.
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Postby Piratis » Wed May 03, 2006 5:29 am

Just a Perfect solution does not exist. There are pros and Cons in any model.

Well, maybe there some pros in the Apartheid model according to you, but allow me not to agree for something like that.

As I said above there are some bare minimums such as democracy and human rights that no self respecting human being would voluntarily agree to live without. So don't confuse the bare minimum that we ask for, with "perfection" which is something way more than that.
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed May 03, 2006 2:15 pm

Piratis wrote:
Just a Perfect solution does not exist. There are pros and Cons in any model.

Well, maybe there some pros in the Apartheid model according to you, but allow me not to agree for something like that.

As I said above there are some bare minimums such as democracy and human rights that no self respecting human being would voluntarily agree to live without. So don't confuse the bare minimum that we ask for, with "perfection" which is something way more than that.


Did I refer to minimun / maximum ? Dont assume things I did not imply!
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed May 03, 2006 2:24 pm

Piratis wrote:Michalis, the Swiss confederation was created by what has been separate city states that joined together. It was not created by ethnically cleansing the population of one unified area and splitting that area into separate cantons.

The closest we can get to the Swiss model is if Cyprus is split into several cantons. The TC cantons being the villages were TCs were the majority. Is this what you suggest?

So no, the Swiss system does not violate the human rights of the Swiss people and the Cyprus system should not violate the human rights of the Cypriot people. Is your question answered?

I have never excluded a federal solution as a solution that can meet the universally accepted principles of democracy and human rights.

As I have suggested before, Cyprus could be made of 2 states. State A of 18% and State B of 82% of land. Then the government could subsidize TCs to buy land and live in State A. If most TCs choose to live in state A then in practice state A would have a TC majority (even if all GC refugees return) and therefore it would be controlled by TCs.
Then the powers of the two states and their relationship to the central government could be similar to the one of the USA Federation.


Thanks for such a constructive approach of yours. You seem a knowledgaeble man and I wish Papadopoulos shares your knowledge as well as I have heard him rejecting models like the above .
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