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The Latvian Model for Cyprus

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Kikapu » Mon May 22, 2006 1:46 pm

Since I joined this forum last month, I have read a lot of different posts from various people who have passion in their opinions and would like to resolve the "Cypriot problem". Those who have read any of my posts will know that I also want a solution that will be fair to all and a peace that will last. We can talk about any other countries model as we want for a solution for Cyprus, but if a solution was indeed what was needed for Cyprus, it could have been found long time ago.

Many people suggested that Turkey would have invaded Cyprus sooner or later with or with out the 1974 excuse given to them by Greece, mainly by Piratis and Kifeas and many rejected this accusations, including my self, since I was subjected to, to be removed from our homes in 1963 at a gun point by the Greeks and any invasion would have been justified between 1963 and 1974.

I have come to accept Piratis's and Kifeas position that Turkey did want to come and take part of Cyprus for herself on behalf of the TC's and same time inflict pain and suffering. They wanted to take revenge on one of their heroes who was killed by the Greeks in 1964.

After we were released ( 700 TC'c ) of 1 week of detention by the Greeks early 1964 and spent months living seperate from my family of 7, we slept and ate in the most sub human conditions you can imagine, so when there was a chance to get some of us out of Cyprus to improve our situation, I was sent to Turkey to live with my aunt until the whole family could be re-united again in the UK in 1968.

I remember while in Turkey in 1964, an event took place that disturbed the whole country. I had to look up recently to get the dates and names. It was 8th August, 1964 when a small squadron of Turkish Air Force was sent on a mission to attack Greeks positions in Cyprus, when one of the jets was shot down, and it was reported that the pilot had ejected. The whole country was glued to their radios to get as much news as possible. I was only 9 years old, but I still remember the intensity and the conversations that took place regarding the out come of the downed pilot. After 4 days of waiting, it was reported by the Greeks that the pilot has died in the hospital from his injuries, trying to land his crippled jet. That day the whole country of Turkey cried for the pilot and his family. The pilots name was, Captain Cengiz Topel. It was determined later that the pilot was tortured and killed by the Greeks using fire to burn him alive. The examination of the body by Dr. Peter Kristensen and Dr. Finn Soensen from the UNFICY did not support the Greeks version of injuries caused by crash landing.

I believe that event set the stage for the 1974 invasion. It was just a matter of time and if I'm correct in my assumptions, Turkey will never hand over Northern part of Cyprus. They may dance around the idea to make little deals here and there, but the Cyprus as we knew in 1960 I'm afraid is long gone.

There can be a new governments in Cyprus, Greece, Turkey, UK and the USA, but the revenge of Capt. Cengis Topel's murder will for ever remain in the minds of the Turkish military and it's citizens, and if you are a Turk, I think you know what I'm talking about. We're like elephants that never forgets.

I have been able to feel the pains of some of you on the forum, like Malaka and Birkibrisli and many others. I don't know what we can do to change the situation as it exists. I wish us all, hope. I was going to come and visit Cyprus this month for 2 weeks after 42 years absence but decided not to come, instead went to Spain.

I want to thank this forum for bringing out a lot of my past into the open which I have not been able to remember much of my childhood in the past. Often I'm able to remember more and more of little things that were long forgotten.
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Postby sadik » Mon May 22, 2006 3:10 pm

Kikapu wrote:I believe that event set the stage for the 1974 invasion. It was just a matter of time and if I'm correct in my assumptions, Turkey will never hand over Northern part of Cyprus. They may dance around the idea to make little deals here and there, but the Cyprus as we knew in 1960 I'm afraid is long gone.


Kikapu, Turkey would have "handed over" north Cyprus, it the Annan plan was accepted. I don't know if you followed the the Turkish media during the Annan Plan discussions. It has been many times said by many influential people in the pro-establishment elite (ex-general, beurocrats, journalists, etc...) that the interests of 70 million people are more important that the interests of 200 thousand. This is something that scares us sometimes. Considering that they placed us on Greek Cyriot property, and hence created a direct conflict of interest between the two communities. They declared the TRNC and caused our isolation from the world. In this isolation, we became completely dependent on them. It is extremly difficult to undo all these things now. And, yet, some day they may simply say "Sorry, 70 millon's interests are more important. ".

On the other hand, this very statement gives us hope that the Turkish policy towards Cyprus has a pragmatical element. One thing that diminishes the strategic importance of Cyprus is something with a much bigger strategic importance; Turkey's membership to the EU. If Turkey continues on the membership path, we'll get anouther shot at a solution, if our GC compatriots really want to sieze the opportunity that is.
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Postby Kikapu » Mon May 22, 2006 3:43 pm

Sadik,
Turkey will be either accepted or rejected entry to the EU if it's going to benefit the EU. Cyprus will be a side issue that will still needs to be negotiated. I don't believe Turkey will walk away from the "land of Cyprus", and I don't mean the 200,000 TC's.

I can't say I follow all the media reports out of Turkey during the Annan Plan discussions in 2004, but what I read of the Annan Plan was no where near as you put it "handed over North Cyprus", otherwise, why would the GC's outright rejected it. Too many people are putting all their eggs in the EU-Turkey basket for a settlement. GC's think they can squeeze Turkey with the threat of a veto vote on the EU admission for Turkey, when they should be trying to convince the other 24 members to vote yes, otherwise the North Cyprus will be lost for ever from the GC's, if the EU entry is rejected. Lets face it, Cyprus is just a fly on an elephant's ass as far as veileding any political power in the EU.
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Postby Piratis » Mon May 22, 2006 3:59 pm

If the USSR was more stable, why is Turkey still there and the USSR is shattered into 100 pieces with further potential of Russia breaking up into another 100 pieces.

Because USA currently has interests in maintaining Turkey as a whole and since USA is still a superpower they have the power to keep Turkey as one. However this can easily change in the not so distant future.

What if this balance of power changes the other way and Turkey tries to occupy even more land? Keeping this situation dragging on for too long is dangereous for all sides.

I agree. Therefore we have to SOLVE the Cyprus problem. And the only way that the problem will be solved is if we create in Cyprus united people with common interests and without racist discriminations. As long as we have two separate and conflicting groups the problem will continue either this problem is called Status gvo" or is called "United Cyprus ala Annan plan" or is called "Ottoman rule".
The problem is not solved by forcing signatures on a paper. I hope you understand this.
And I never claimed that GCs will some day gain the "final victory". As long as this conflict continues nobody will ever win anything apart from short term gains. All Cypriots will be losers.


I do understand your frustration. But what we need to do is further negotiate in good faith and make sure that people nogotiating for us are more interested in a solution than their current posts. The responsibility is not only yours, we also need to make sure that our leaders stop asking for more and more, which ultimately paves the way for another rejection, and comprimise at a mutually acceptable level.


Unfortunately negotiations are based on power politics and have nothing to do with what is right and wrong. This is why they can not lead to anything positive.
The only way to have useful negotiations is if first we agreed that this negotiations will be done in the framework of democracy, human rights, and independence and sovereignty of Cyprus based on the model of other successful democracies.
Then we can negotiate on how we can best accommodate the concerns of GCs and TCs without violating these universally accepted principles.

As long as this framework is not agreed I am afraid the power based negotiations are useless for a true solution in Cyprus. (The only way that power based negotiations could result to something positive is if both sides have about the same power and would cancel out each other. Otherwise the powerful will always try to force his demands on the weak without be limited by the universally accepted principles)
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Postby Kifeas » Mon May 22, 2006 4:53 pm

Kikapu wrote: I remember while in Turkey in 1964, an event took place that disturbed the whole country. I had to look up recently to get the dates and names. It was 8th August, 1964 when a small squadron of Turkish Air Force was sent on a mission to attack Greeks positions in Cyprus, when one of the jets was shot down, and it was reported that the pilot had ejected. The whole country was glued to their radios to get as much news as possible. I was only 9 years old, but I still remember the intensity and the conversations that took place regarding the out come of the downed pilot. After 4 days of waiting, it was reported by the Greeks that the pilot has died in the hospital from his injuries, trying to land his crippled jet. That day the whole country of Turkey cried for the pilot and his family. The pilots name was, Captain Cengiz Topel. It was determined later that the pilot was tortured and killed by the Greeks using fire to burn him alive. The examination of the body by Dr. Peter Kristensen and Dr. Finn Soensen from the UNFICY did not support the Greeks version of injuries caused by crash landing.


I am not aware of these details that you are saying about the Turkish pilot; in fact I wasn’t even aware that a Turkish plane was shot down during the August 1964 air strikes in Tylliria. However, it worth’s noting that during those air strikes, those Turkish pilots bombed 4-5 G/C villages in the area with prohibited by the Geneva convention Napalm bombs, (something which they apparently did in 1974 as well,) burning alive some 50-60 people, mostly civilians, therefore I wouldn’t be surprised at all if such a pilot was caught alive by the villagers in the area, he would have received a similar “treatment” to the one he had given to them.
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Postby Kikapu » Mon May 22, 2006 5:24 pm

Kifeas,
Well, so much for the Geneva convention. Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth is more like the rule of war these days, only they are too proud to admit it. I'll try to find a website on the pilot. Infact if you google his name, you should get some info.
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Postby RichardB » Mon May 22, 2006 5:40 pm

Name is Cengiz Topel. Lots of sites come up if you Google. Apparrantly he has an Airport named after him!
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Postby Antreis » Mon May 22, 2006 5:59 pm

Poor villagers armed with plows vs the Napalm bearing planes!
This is how the turkish regime exercise justice.


The next thing we are going to hear is that the 1974 Turkish invasion was a Peace-keeping mission or the Armenian and Pontian genocides were mass tourist excursions.
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Postby Kikapu » Mon May 22, 2006 7:03 pm

Antreis wrote:The next thing we are going to hear is that the 1974 Turkish invasion was a Peace-keeping mission .


No it wasn't. I think it was design to step on ( military Greece's) neck to think twice next time, to send her forces to Cyprus.
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Postby Kifeas » Mon May 22, 2006 7:46 pm

Kikapu wrote:Kifeas,
Well, so much for the Geneva convention. Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth is more like the rule of war these days, only they are too proud to admit it. I'll try to find a website on the pilot. Infact if you google his name, you should get some info.


No, I do not agree with the 'an eye for an eye" logic, but you can imagine the insanity of these people in the area after what they have experienced by him and his colleges. For those who do not know what a napalm bomb is, it is a bomb that besides killing people with the medal fragments once it explodes –something which one can avoid if fells down on the floor or dive in a trench, it releases flammable burning gasses to an area of 50-100 meters radius (depending on its size,) effectively burning anything living inside the covered area, no matter what and how well one hides.
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