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[b]YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE[/b]

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Postby Antreis » Wed May 24, 2006 5:10 pm

GreekCypriotGurl_UK wrote:turkey is responsible for genocide of Armenians pontian greeks and Assyrians the turks denie it to this day turkey was built on genocide the world should recgnoise the armenian genocide and boycot turkey and stop it becomnig a member in the EU.

Hitler said "WHO NOW remembers the Armenians?" just before he embarked on
the genocide of jews. seems hitler must have got his inspirations from the Turks or else why would he have said it



You are right.
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Postby andri_cy » Wed May 24, 2006 6:36 pm

helloguys wrote:I am saddened by your lack of knowledge about this topic. It is not only stated by Armenian, Arabs or Kurds about the Genocide....but also English and American historians who had witnessed the killings.

In my opinion, Turkey must accept and move on with thier history. Even Turkish histrians and professers are accepting it...not with pride but with shame about Turkey's dark past



He was being sarcastic; you just didnt catch it.
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Postby akiner » Wed May 24, 2006 6:59 pm

To understand that complex issue i will clarify every part i have found on net/books so even a brainwashed-propagandist learn something new;

Let's take a look at Turco-Armenian Relations 1800's and early 1900's

1878
(April, 13) The Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul, Nerses has sent a note to British Secretary of Foreign Affairs saying that they would not live together with the Turks any longer. (July, 13) The Treaty of Berlin was signed. Article 61 about the Ottoman Armenians was added to the treaty. (August, 3) The British Secretary of Foreign Affairs Lord Salisbury sent an instruction to the British Ambassador Layard and informed him that the Ottoman Government should begin making reforms in the Eastern Anatolia.


The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) (Armenian: Hay Heghapokhakan Dashnaktsutiun Dashnaktsutiun, Dashnak, or Tashnak) is an Armenian political party founded in Tiflis (Tbilisi in modern day Georgia) in 1890


1890 (June, 20) Revolt of Erzurum (July) Kumkapi Demonstration.First Sason Revolt.

1892 – 1893 Merzifon, Kayseri and Yozgat Revolts

1895 (September, 30) Sublime Porte (Government’s Gate) Event Istanbul.(November) The Armenian attempt for a revolt in Maras.

1896 (October, 30) Armenian Uprising in Istanbul (June, 1) First Van Revolt(August, 26) Raid of the Ottoman Bank

1902 Armenian philologist H. Acaryan published a book titled The Effects of Turkish Language on Armenian Language and The Turkish Words in Armenian.

1904 Second Sason Revolt

1905 (July, 1921) The Assassination attempt against Sultan Abdulhamid II in Yildiz Mosque.

1908 Armenian newspaper “Jamanak” started publication.Second National Council has opened and some of the Armenian Committee members were elected deputies.

1909 (April, 14) Armenian Revolt in Adana.

1915 (April, 15) Second Van Revolt.(April, 24) Armenian Committees working against the Ottoman Government were closed. The 2345 members of those committees were arrested. (May, 3) Armenian Massacres in Van.

1918 (February, 1) Armenian secret society member Arshak committed massacres in Bayburt.(April, 25) Armenian militants killed 750 Muslims in Subatan village of Kars City. (May, 1) An Armenian militant named Arshak killed 60 Muslims including children in Kars City.

1919 (November, 20) Two Armenian high category bureaucrats of the Ottoman government, Bogos Nubar Pasha and Sherif Pasha signed Armenian-Kurd independence document.

1920 (January, 12) An Armenian mounted unit tortured Muslims in the Arapdar village of Antep City. (December, 2) Treaty of Gumru was signed.

1921 (March, 15) An Armenian terrorist assassinated Talat Pasha in Berlin. (March, 16) The Moscow Treaty was signed.March, 18 Misak Torlakyan killed the Minister of Internal Affairs of Azerbaijan, Cevanshir Han, in Istanbul. (October, 13) Kars Agreement was signed.(December, 6) Armenians killed Sait Halim Pasha in Rome.

1922 (July, 22) Cemal Pasha was killed by Armenians, in Tbilisi.
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Postby akiner » Wed May 24, 2006 7:09 pm

Time to move on and search life stories of armenian's elder of those time...

Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic
"The war with us was inevitable... We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks...We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win. Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. ...In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost......the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector....the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and there were not any massacres. "

The Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Independent Armenian Republic
Published by the Armenian Information Service Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave. New York 22 – 1955


These words of their first pm was about whole armenian cause

........."Even Dashnak leaders admitted the Dashnaks were Russian allies. The Dashnak Hovhannes Katchaznouni, prime
minister of the Armenian Republic, stated that the party plan at the beginning of the war was to ally with the
Russians.
Since 1910 the revolutionaries had distributed a pamphlet throughout Eastern Anatolia. It demonstrated how
Armenian villages were to be organized into regional commands, how Muslim villages were to be attacked, and
specifics of guerilla warfare.
Before the war began, Ottoman Army Intelligence reported on Dashnak plans: They would declare their loyalty to
the Ottoman State, but increase their arming of their supporters. If war was declared, Armenian soldiers would
desert to the Russian Army with their arms. The Armenians would do nothing if the Ottomans began to defeat the
Russians. If the Ottomans began to retreat, the Armenians would form armed guerilla bands and attack according to
plan. The Ottoman intelligence reports were correct, for that is exactly what happened.".........

By Prof Dr. Justin McCarthy

KACHAZNUNI, Ruben HOVHANNES (Akhaltsikhe 1868 – ?Yerevan 1938) His family originated from Erzerum. Attended Russian and German universities, studying architecture and mining engineering. Settled in Baku; joined the Dashnak party. Published a work on poets of eastern Armenia (1902). Visited Erzerum after Ottoman constitution (1908). Criticised establishment of volunteer units (1914). After 1917, he was a member of the Armenian National Council; in November one of nine Dashnaks chosen to represent the party in the new Constitution Assembly, Petrograd. Chief spokesman for Dashnaktsutiun in the Transcaucasian Seim (February–May 1918). A member of the Transcaucasian delegation at the Trebizond conference (March). Minister of welfare in Chkhenkeli's government (Transcaucasian). After Armenia's independence, he was a member of the delegation that signed the treaty of Batum (4 June 1918). Appointed first prime minister of Armenia, arriving in Yerevan on 17 July. Criticised by hard-line Dashnaks for his conciliatory policies. Travelled to Europe and America in April–May 1919 (together with a Populist minister) to obtain funds and aid. Relinquished premiership of Khatisian, August 1919. Approached to take premiership again in November 1920; accepted, but unable to form a government. Arrested after Sovietisation; released by February revolt. Left Armenia for Europe in 1921. Published manifesto at a Dashnak convention, Bucarest, March 1923, entitled Dashnaktsutiun has Nothing More to Do, in which he argued that Dashnaktsutiun should terminate its existence as a party and all Armenians should support Soviet Armenia. Repatriated to Soviet Armenia and worked there; killed during Stalin/Beria purges.



ANDRANIK (Ozanian), General (Shabin Karahisar 1865 – Fresno 1927) Trained as a carpenter. Began revolutionary activity in Sivas province in 1888. Joined the Dashnak party in 1892. Defended???? (from what) Armenian villages in Moush-Sasun district in 1895–6. To Transcaucasia in 1897, to the party headquarters in Tiflis. Returned to Turkish Armenia well armed and with extensive powers. Leader of the guerrilla forces in Sasun from 1899, with 38 villages under his command. After the murder of Serop in 1900, Andranik assassinated his killer, Bshara Khalil agha; became leader of Armenians of entire Bitlis and Moush district. Besieged at Arakelots monastery (near Moush) in November 1901, he broke out with his men after donning the uniforms of Turkish officers. Confronted by large Turkish force in spring 1904, he and his men – the elite of the Armenian guerrillas – effected a retreat to Van via Aghtamar. Left Turkish Armenia for Persia. To Transcaucasia; then Vienna. Resigned from the Dashnak party in 1907. Spent some time in Geneva and Egypt; then to Sofia. Soon identified himself with the Macedonian struggle; led a troop of 230 Armenian volunteers in the First Balkan war, 1912. To Transcaucasia on outbreak of first world war; commanded a volunteer troop of 1,000 men, active on the North Persian front, contributing to the Russian victory at Diliman (Shahpur, April 1915). His forces joined with the Armenian legion in expelling the Turks from south of Lake Van; but forced to retreat by a Turkish counter-offensive (July 1915). His unit dissolved by the authorities in early 1916. Commander of the Western Armenian division, in December 1917, whose three brigades constituted part of the Armenian Corps (established January 1918). Forced to evacuate Erzerum, March 1918. Resigned his command and left for Tiflis in same month. Formed new Western Armenian brigade; did not participate in the battle of Sardarabad. Angry with the leaders of the Republic of Armenia for signing the treaty of Batum; recognised the government of Soviet Russia, and declared Nakhichevan to be part of it (July 1918), having gone to Zangezur via Nakhichevan. About to March on Shushi (Karabagh) in December 1918, when a message from the British commander halted him, thereby causing Karabagh to remain outside Armenia to this day. To Echmiadzin via Daralagiaz, March 1919; forced by British pressure to disband his brigade. Left Transcaucasia in April 1919; to Paris and London, trying to persuade Allies to occupy Turkish Armenia. To the USA fund-raising for the Armenian army. To Fresno, California, where he died in 1927; his body shipped abroad for burial in Armenia; refused entry by Communist authorities, so laid to rest in Père Lachaise cemetery, Paris. In 1970 his grave visited by Marshal I. Kh. Baghramian. A bust of him has been erected in Soviet Armenia.


RMEN GARO (Garegin Pasdermadjian) (Erzerum 1873 – Geneva 1924) Educated Sanasarian College, Erzerum, and Nancy (France). Joined Dashnak party 1895. Participated in seizure of Ottoman Bank, Constantinople, 1896. Returned to Europe to pursue scientific training. To Transcaucasia; in command of the Tiflis sector in combating the 1903–5 tsarist measures and Tatar attacks. Returned to Erzerum after Ottoman constitution of 1908; elected a deputy in the Ottoman Parliament. Quitted Ottoman empire on outbreak of war; helped establish Russian–Armenian volunteer units. Became the Republic of Armenia's unofficial ambassador in Washington. A member of the revised delegation at the Paris peace conference April 1919. Took part in organising assassinations of Turkish leaders in 1921–2.


from book of Christopher J. Walker
"ARMENIA: The Survival of a Nation"

This book a pro-armeninan one, but even all tries can't hide the truth about the armenian community at ottoman state
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Postby akiner » Wed May 24, 2006 7:14 pm

addition,

BABKEN SIUNI (Petros Parian) (Agn (Egin), nr Arabkir 1879 – Constantinople 1896) Educated in Istabnul. Became member of Dashnak party; expelled from school for political activities. Led Ottoman Bank raid (August 1896); killed early on in the siege.

DAMADIAN, MIHRAN (Constantinople 1863 – Cairo 1945) Born to an Armenian Catholic family. Early education at the school of the Viennese Mkhitarists, Pangalti (Constantinople), and at school of S. Hagop. Then to the Murad Rapayelian school, Venice, graduating in 1880. Returned to Constantinople; became a teacher. Principal of an elementary school in Moush, 1884–8. His first-hand experience of Armenian conditions persuaded him to become a revolutionary in 1886. Returned to Constantinople; joined the Hunchak party. One of the main participants in the Kum Kapu Affray, July 1890. Escaped to Athens, contacted other anti-Ottoman revolutionaries; took part in a demonstration in Athens, July 1891. Returned to Sasun in disguise; organised some Armenians into a guerrilla band. Prepared for British consul at Erzerum a report on Armenian conditions. Arrested in May 1893; taken to Constantinople, where he was amnestied (1894). In Constantinople during the Bab Ali demonstration. Then on orders from the party he fled to Bulgaria. On to Romania; arrested; put aboard a Romanian vessel bound for Constantinople. Saved by the British ship's captain who, mistaking him for a fellow freemason, hid him and dropped him off at Piraeus, Greece. Then to London for the first Hunchak general congress, held in Frithville Gardens, Shepherds Bush (September 1896). To Alexandria, on party work. Resigned from the party after disputes; but in 1908 founded the Sahmanadrakan Ramkavar (Constitutional Democrat) party by uniting the Armenakans with part of the Verakazmial (reformed) Hunchaks. Planned an armed attack on Cilicia(Hatay,Adana region) in 1913; dissuaded by Catholicos Sahak II of Cilicia. In the USA and Europe (mostly Paris) during the first world war. Associated with the Armenian National Delegation of Boghos Nubar Pasha after the war; its representative in Adana 1919–20. Installed himself in the governor's office and proclaimed himself governor of Cilicia under French mandate, 5 August 1920; forced out the same day. Became leader of the Ramkavar Azatakan party from its foundation in 1921. In Beirut 1929–37; member of AGBU committee; one of the founders of Zartonk ('Awakening') newspaper, 1937. Retired to Cairo, where he died a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

HRAIR (Armenak Ghazarian) (Aharonk, Sasun 1864–1904) Educated S. Karapet school and Moush central school. Became a teacher. Some revolutionary activity in Sasun, 1891–3. Active in 1894 Sasun rebellion. To Transcaucasia, where he joined the Dashnak party. Travelled to Romania on party business. Severely critical of internecine struggles of Armenian armchair revolutionaries; believed in co-operation of all Armenian fighters. Chief Dashnak agent in Moush, Sasun, Bitlis and Akhlat, 1895–1904; the chief spirit of the 1904 Sasun rebellion. 'Hrair' means 'man of fire'. His other revolutionary soubriquets were D'zhokhk ('the hell') and Ourvakan ('the ghost').
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Postby akiner » Wed May 24, 2006 7:25 pm

to conclude,

it is easy to understand armenians were on the side of russia at wwI, and it is also abvious they had an agenda and worked for it...

Anyway i ask that question alot of times at different forums, sad i need to repeat it again, would you genocide claimers pls post coordinates one of the mass graves...

And when you consider to call and recognise Turkic Genocide
"it is also well-known fact that from 1821 till 1920 at the time of recession on Balkans and Caucasia 5 million Turks got killed , 5.4 million Turks had become refugees. (J. McCarthy, Death and Exile, 1995,p.339)"
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Postby miltiades » Wed May 24, 2006 8:00 pm

Akiner , very informative post , why dont you go to google and ask for the armenian genocide of 1915 .The picture you are painting is the one hanging up in the Turkish parliament. The genocide occurerd and sooner or later Turkey will admit to it and then perhaps get on with becoming the largest member of the EU. Changes will be made like it or not Turkey will not be permitted to have it's cake and eat it. Your analysis of events is what by now every one refers to as "selective memory "
Regards
PS CAN YU ELABORATE ON " If Eu enosis is on the table, why red-apple should not "
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Postby akiner » Wed May 24, 2006 8:39 pm

miltiades wrote:Akiner , very informative post , why dont you go to google and ask for the armenian genocide of 1915 .The picture you are painting is the one hanging up in the Turkish parliament. The genocide occurerd and sooner or later Turkey will admit to it and then perhaps get on with becoming the largest member of the EU. Changes will be made like it or not Turkey will not be permitted to have it's cake and eat it. Your analysis of events is what by now every one refers to as "selective memory "
Regards


indeed, with the time everyone will understand armenian genocide is nothing but a fairy tale

PS CAN YU ELABORATE ON " If Eu enosis is on the table, why red-apple should not "

Hope this will be helpfull,
"The term of Kızılelma (Red Apple) is sometimes defined as the west-east-north-south parts in accordance with regions in which the Turks live, in other words, the Turan Provinces. It is also imagined as a city that should be reached from every direction or sometimes as a golden and spherical ruby ball made of unalloyed gold that glitters over a throne or temple in a country and represents the unbearable yearning for the achievement."

for more info -------------------------> http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0001/0001_giris_1.htm
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Postby miltiades » Wed May 24, 2006 9:14 pm

You Akiner live way way back in the past. Dont point me to some Turkish propaganda site , go on international sites , Google , Yahoo , MSN and you see that the entire FREE WORLD with minor exeptions so as not to offend Turkey , accepts the Genocide event.Wake up to realities and free yourself from misconceptions , break loose and think with your brain not your heart. Human Calamities and Genocides have occured , denying the Armenian Genocide is what the Turkish government has been doing for years. Can I ask if you are a Cypriot , because the explanation you offered re: red apple sounds like jargon from a foreign land .
Regards
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Postby akiner » Wed May 24, 2006 10:08 pm

miltiades wrote:You Akiner live way way back in the past. Dont point me to some Turkish propaganda site , go on international sites , Google , Yahoo , MSN and you see that the entire FREE WORLD with minor exeptions so as not to offend Turkey , accepts the Genocide event.Wake up to realities and free yourself from misconceptions , break loose and think with your brain not your heart. Human Calamities and Genocides have occured , denying the Armenian Genocide is what the Turkish government has been doing for years.


look who is talking about "selective memories" :)

Can I ask if you are a Cypriot , because the explanation you offered re: red apple sounds like jargon from a foreign land .
Regards

go do a google search you wont miss hte info about well-known song from They might be Giants...
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