Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

You already got your answers.

As it can been seen Greece doesn't prohibit anybody to speak any language they desire. What they had a problem with is that some others use the word Macedonian, to describe something that has nothing to do with this Greek area.

So the people of FYROM can freely speak their Slavic language, and this not a criminal offense as you falsely claimed.

Also, as I already said, what Greece does is to protect her integrity, and nothing more than that. They do not kill people, bomb their villages, prohibit them to speak their language or anything similar to what Turkey does.

Trying to compare Greece with Turkey in terms of human rights, democracy, civilization or anything like that is a lost argument for you, and it sounds quite ridiculous to anybody that is not blinded by nationalism like you. Try to compare Turkey with Afghanistan, you will have better chances. Even better, acknowledge how far behind is Turkey in terms of democracy and human rights, and stop giving cheap excuses otherwise turkey will never progress.

[garbitsch]

So Turkey does prohibit people speaking Kurdish and other languages? Is this your point? If so, I think I was daydreaming when I saw the Kurdish programmes on TV and Kurds singing in Kurdish or simply you need to update yourself.
My point was regarding the recognition of the ethnic minorities. Greece does not recognise the existence of ethnic minorities within its borders. This has nothing to do with the protection of the integrity or whatsoever. Greece referes to Laussaine Treaty, in which the signing parties had recognised that the Turks and other ethnic minorities should be called "Muslim Greeks". I am also saying that the Kurds and others were not recognised too. Also I find your statement of the "comparison between Turkey and Afghanistan" very immature and Turkophobic. Turkey is a candidate state of European Union, which had achieved the Copenhaugen Criteria. Of course, there are abuses towards its citizens, but this takes time and there are still years on Turkey to develop in terms of human rights etc. Yet, you must be really hateful towards Turks and Turkey that you see Turkish state as Afghanistan or some other failed state.

[Piratis]

My point was regarding the recognition of the ethnic minorities. Greece does not recognise the existence of ethnic minorities within its borders.

Why should they? So then you will manage to partition Greece also? They will not do you this favor.

Anyways, maybe I was dreaming also when the Turkish army was bombing the Kurdish villages, and the prisons in Turkey are actually not full with political prisoners.

I would like to ask you something: We have a minority of Turks in Greece, a minority of Greeks in Turkey, the minority of Turkish Cypriots, the minority of Kurds etc.

Can you propose one solution for all of these cases? I am sure you can not, because what you want is to use double standards. So, can you do it without using double standards?

[garbitsch]

Turkish army indeed had done cruel things to the Kurds in Turkey. This has being acknowledged now. There was a case which a father and his 12 year old son were mudered by the soldiers, because they were "terrorists". Now the court has been dealing with this issue. I believe each state has its own deal with its ethnic minorities. I am fine with the Greek position towards its "ethnic" minorities, but you keep advocating the rights of the Kurds and others in Turkey. So, you would be fine if the Kurds are forced not to call themselves Kurds but Turks speaking Kurdish (also not bombing their villages etc)? Above all, the Kurds had engaged in terrorist activities by killing thousands for the Kurdish independence.
The Cyprus case is simply different. The Republic of Cyprus was not founded by the Greeks. It is not a Greek republic. This is the policy of the RoC. So, it is not an issue of the Greek Cypriots whether to grant minority rights to Turkish Cypriots or not. You cannot compare the position of the Greek Government and Turkish Government with that of Cypiot Government.

[Piratis]

As I suspected. You can not suggest anything without applying double standards.

I can do it:

Each country is made up from equal citizens. Each citizen has all his human rights protected, including the right to talk the language that he wants. Each ethnic community within the country has the right to operate its own schools and organizations, as long as they do not go against the integrity of the country. Big minorities (and even smaller ones if feasible) should have their language as an official language of the country they live in, and they should have boosted representation in the parliament and the government. Affirmative actions should be present to ensure that all communities are represented proportionately in all governmental and even some important private organizations. etc.

[garbitsch]

This can only be applied to the nation-states. Still it is not feasable for the countries like Cyprus, Belgium, Switzerland etc. Not all systems and the relationships between the ethnic groups are same. So, there are indeed double standards.

[Piratis]

So, there are indeed double standards.

Only by force, and only temporary my friend. If you think we are going to sit and be discriminated against by your double standards you are veeeeery wrong.

[Realist]

Garbitsch,

I think you should try and get your information from more then just one source. How about a slightly larger institution like Amnesty International.
The fact that Greece is liberal enough to allow these kind of internet pages that are not in her favour shows the level of democracy in the country. How many Turkish organisations are there that stand up for minority human rights in Turkey?

You talk about the Kurds being a slightly different matter. What about Turkey's stance on the 45000 Greeks still living in Turkey who are also not allowed to excercise their human freedoms.

Recently there has been widespread news on how women demonstrators have been beaten in Istanbul. Turkish authorities don't even treat their own citizens with respect, let alone minorities.

[garbitsch]

Realist:
1- Greek Helsinki Monitor is a good source. Please urge some other guys to look for other sources. We are not writing essays here. You didn't get my point and I believe you are blaming me for not being reasonable!
2- What the Police did to women was a shame, but you should not make discrimination as male or female protestor. These people were doing something illegal, besides they were there to support Kurdish seperatism. I would like you to remind that a protestor of globalisation was shot to death in Italy by the police in 2002. Oh, sorry Italy is a liberal state, so their behaviours cannot be criticised. But shame on Turks, who are barbars that beat their protestors!!! Quote: "Double Standards"
3- The Greeks in Turkey at least can call themselves "Greeks" not Christian Turks. They have schools, they have churches but more rights need to be granted, I agree with you. I also support the Halki School. But Greeks still debate on whether to build a mosque in Athens or not. I wonder when the liberal Greek state will decide to erect a mosque in the Europe's only "mosqueless" capital. This shows that the religious rights of Muslims in Athens are violated. But you never see these as violations, because Greece is a EU member so they are perfect in all senses.

[brother]

hehehee...heheheh...nice response garbitsch, but remember they are the spoilt older brother of the E.U and now little brother the spoilt brat ROC is in and that is only because they blackmailed the E.U, so much for democracy and stuff.