Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Alexandre, I think it would be interesting if you gave us your personal views on the issue as well. Anyway, I heard Papadopoulos's comments this morning from Bratislava. He claimed that he is willing to work with Turkey for a solution based on the A plan and always under the auspices of the UN. Is he sincere in this or is he just trying to buy some time again? I think, the international community, the one that matters, does not take Papadopoulos seriously any more. This is bad for all of us. Even for those that think partition is better than an agreed solution based on the A plan.

[brother]

Its another one of tassos games he likes to play.

[-mikkie2-]

mikkie2,

my results are not my own views - they are the views of 1,000 Greek Cypriots that were surveyed.

Alex,

I wasn't suggesting that it was your view, but was suggesting that perhaps the conclusions were overlooking an aspect which I think is imperative for a fair solution.

Anyway, you have given me your view which is much appreciated. I agree with what you say regading the purity of the two regions. The Annan plan as it stands entrenches the division of our two communities rather than bringing them together.

There are still forces in the north that perpetuate the myth that we cannot live together and intimidation to that effect is still rife.

The bomb that today blew up the offices of a Turkish Cypriot travel agent that organises tours to the south and cruises via the port of Limassol and has close links with greek cypriot travel agents is a prime example of the intimidation that is happening.

[brother]

Yes that is a shocking development, but i would say that sort of intimidation exist on both sides would you not.

[Piratis]

From earlier discussions my impression is that Piratis believes that any such federal structure is a 'gift' from GC to TC and only given because they have no choice and under duress. This is born out in Alexandros' study as well.

Of course it is a compromise!!

Federation: act of joining together; league, covenant; political unity formed by a number of separate states

So basically a federation is the union of separate states. In Cyprus the separation is illegal, and shouldn't have been there in the first place. There is only one state in Cyprus.

Now we can make a quite fair strong federation, with minimum harm on human rights, and this will be something that can last for very long. It would not be perfect, but it wouldn't be something that would bother us either.

But if we are going to implement anything similar to what Annan calls federation, then make no mistake: When the balance of power shifts, things will be shifted in Cyprus as well. This is why I say that the solution should be fair and not just "balanced". Because the balance will change, and when it does we will have to change the solution accordingly as well. And because the balance will always keep changing, this means that all of us will always loose in the end because we will never manage to have long time of peace. The only way that both communities can win is to agree on something fair.

[erolz]

Of course it is a compromise!!

GC have a right to self determination but TC do not? Any insistance that there in only one Cypriot people with such a right simply does not wash with me, nor does it reflect any reality that has existed in the past or exists today. It is simply a 'notional construct' that happens to favour the GC community (because they happen to be more numerous than TC in Cyprus).

So the current 'balance of power' is making you compromise on something that you think is not really fair or just (if TC had a right then it would be fair and just). Do you not see why I fear a change in the balance of power may lead to change in GC willingness to 'grant' this 'gift' to TC - from your statements above AND from the experience of history? Are you really so unable to undestand this from a TC perspective? You insist that we have no right as TC to determine our future, just to live as an ethnic minority in our own (shared) country. This refusal to accept that TC as a community have any such rights IS the Cyprus problem as far I am concerned. It was the problem in 1963 and remains the problem today.

It would not be perfect, but it wouldn't be something that would bother us either.

I am expected to believe this and trust upto my life and security on this? That when the balance of power shifts there would be no attempts by GC to (justly in their mind - as they only agreed under duress and force in the first place) rollback any concessions granted to the TC - that were never a right of TC but merely a gift from GC given under duress?

When the balance of power shifts, things will be shifted in Cyprus as well. Because the balance will change, and when it does we will have to change the solution accordingly as well.

Which is exactly why the real issue is GC acceptance of the TC communites RIGHT to a degree of self determination in their own (shared) country. Why any deal that is based on the concept that TC have no such right, but GC will let them have some status that would go with such a right as a matter of necessity and compromise, hold no long term security for the TC community in Cyprus. If this were 1960 then MAYBE I (personaly) might be willing to trust to such a settlement, but given the history from 63 onwards there is no way I can do so.

This is why I say that the solution should be fair and not just "balanced".

Accepting that TC have a RIGHT to a degree of self determination is not a matter of compromise from the TC point of view. Just like you consider YOUR rights not a matter of compromise - but a right.

Where compromise comes in is accepting that two seperate communites in Cyprus BOTH with a right to self determination will have to accept some limits on their total right to self determination in order to live in a unitary state. Accepting that TC have this right is not the compromise (from TC point of view). Finding an agreement as two how the two communites will work in a unitary state is the compromise. It should require acceptance from the TC side that on some issues they will be subject to a GC numerical majority and an acceptance from GC that on some issues they will subject to a TC communites equality. That is the compromise.

However such a compromise that has any chance of lasting cannot be made whilst there is an inistance from GC that TC have no such right at all. Such a starting point can only lead to where we were in 1963 as I see it, just as you state above. Any settlement that does not accept some degree of RIGHT of TC community to self determination in their own (shared) country is UNFAIR and UNJUST and will not last.

If myself and Piarits are representative of the respective communites (and actualy I hope that we are not) then this is the core issue. Is it 'fair' for the TC community to have any RIGHT to self determination in their own (shared) country or not? I say that it is fair and just that they have this right. Piratis says it is not fair or just that they have this right. Unless this issue is resolved there is little point is discussing what kind of structure and compromise there should be between the two communites in a shared unitary state. GC will continue to try and limit and remove any 'concessions' given as the balance of power allows and TC will continue to resist any attempts to do so.

In such a senario there really are only two possible ways forward (that I can see). Either GC accpet that TC have a RIGHT to some degree of self determination in their own country and we get down to agreeing a framework on that basis that is 'fair' (accepts equality of communites on some issues and not on others) or they agree to split Cyprus into two seprate independent states. As far as I can tell GC have never (sincerely)accpeted either and show little sign of doing so any time soon.

[-mikkie2-]

Erol,

We should be talking about the self determination of Cypriots as a whole, not for the individual communities. The way you are talking is for each community to have self determination.

All that will do is to lead to conflict.

A country that is built on suspicion and mistrust will lead us to disaster yet again.

You talk about the sincerity (or lack of) the GC's. Yet we have gone ahead with demining, whilst the TC's have dragged their feet. We have given you a list of the TC missing and where they are burried, the TC's have done nothing to help the GC's in return. The list of things can go on.

If the TC leaders has any ounze of decency they would be constructively working on these issues, but as always they don't. You are always suscpicious because that is what you have been taught to do. If that mentality doesn't change then how can you expect progress?

[erolz]

Erol,

We should be talking about the self determination of Cypriots as a whole, not for the individual communities. The way you are talking is for each community to have self determination.

There can be no self determination for Cypriots as single people until we exist as a single people and we do not. The hope would be that with effort and determination this ultimate goal can be achieved. However to say that there is only a single Cypriot people and nation today is simply to ignore reality (and in the process favour GC aspirations over TC).

I am not saying that both communites should have a right to self determination. I am saying that they have that right, as a right, equally in their shared country. I am saying that both communites must accept some limits on their absoloute right if there is to be a united Cyprus.

All that will do is to lead to conflict.

I disagree. With suficent will and acceptance and compromise from both sides the hope is that we can and will over time learn to live as a single Cypriot people and not as two peoples in the same geographical Island. That however is the 'end game'. We can not just arrive at that point if first the TC are forced to renounce any right they have to any degree of self determination.

A country that is built on suspicion and mistrust will lead us to disaster yet again.

I agree. Do you really not understand (even if you do not agree) with why it is so important that it be accepted (by everyone but by GC especially) that TC as a community in Cyprus have a RIGHT to at least a degree of self determination? Can you not understand why I fear any settlement that does not accept this fact.

In retrun I understand the GC fear that accepting TC in Cyprus have such a right equally with GC may be used by (some) TC to legitimise partition. That is why I talk of compromise and limits on each community absoloute right as a means of creating a unitary Cyprus that hopefully will one day lead to there truly being a single Cypriot people.

You talk about the sincerity (or lack of) the GC's.

My view of the past is that Makarios in 1960 agreed to a unitary Cyprus that accepted that the TC community would have more rights and status than just a minority in Cyprus - not because he believed that TC should have such rights but because he was forced too and because he believed that over time the 'concessions' to the TC could be overturned. This is the main reason (with Piratis repeated comments a close second) why I fear any new settlement where any status of the TC community above that of minority is given by GC reluctantly or under pressure and not because they accept that TC DO have a right to a DEGREE of self determination in the country they consider their homeland.

Yet we have gone ahead with demining, whilst the TC's have dragged their feet. We have given you a list of the TC missing and where they are burried, the TC's have done nothing to help the GC's in return. The list of things can go on.

In general terms there has been a constant lack of trust between the communites and lack of sincerity. Every 'positive' move by GC can be written off as 'political manouverings' by TC and visa versa. Much like the opening of the border has never been seen by most GC as a 'progressive' move - merely a calculated political move.

If the TC leaders has any ounze of decency they would be constructively working on these issues, but as always they don't. You are always suscpicious because that is what you have been taught to do. If that mentality doesn't change then how can you expect progress?

I actauly agree that we need a leadership in the north that is much more progressive. One that will act constructively despite what the GC may say or do. I would like to see many more positive and unilateral acts on our side. The fact remains however that if GC can not and will not accept that the TC community has some degree of RIGHT to self determination in their own homeland then any such moves still will not allow for the creation of united Cyprus that meets the needs and aspirations of all Cypriots.

For me first there has to be a genuine acceptance of the right of the TC community to a degree of self determination - limited by the needs of living on the same Island as the GC community with the same rights (and also that accpets the numerical differences which would be material in some issues and not others).

I really do not feel I am suspcious because that is what I have been taught. In fact I do not think it is suspicious at all to feel that the majority of GC really believe that TC should have no more rights in their own country than those of an ethnic minority. I think this is clearly shown to be the case. If this is the case, as I believe it to be, then I also do not think it is suspicious to have concerns over any settlement that gives TC a status greater than that of a minority. If you do not believe we should have these rights then agreeing a settlement that gives them us is to me dangerous.

Confidence building, progressive and proactive and unilateral acts (from either or both sides) are obviously to be welcome. Neither sides record on this is particularly impressive in my view. However even if they were without a basic accptance by GC that TC have some degree of RIGHT to self determiantion I see no prospect for a uiited Cyprus - unless TC willingly accept they should, as a community, have no more rights and status in their own homeland than that of a minority.

[Othellos]

Hello erolz

In your post you talk repeatedly about a "degree of self determination" for the Turkish Cypriots. I am interested to know how you define "self determination" in this case. I am also interested to know how you understand a "unified" Cyprus.

Alexandros

I wonder how your study takes into account the fact that many Greek Cypriots were poorly informed (or even misinformed) about cetain aspects of the plan? I also wonder if you have attempted to process your survey results based on the people's understanding of the plan. In other words, are there any striking differences between the replies of those who understood better the plan from those who did not? And if yes then what are these differences?

Best regards

O.

[erolz]

Hello erolz

In your post you talk repeatedly about a "degree of self determination" for the Turkish Cypriots. I am interested to know how you define "self determination" in this case.

Hi Othellos.

In simple terms it means an acceptance that the TC community has a RIGHT to a status greater than that of an ethnic minority - but less than the absolute and total right to self determination (because we also share the island with others with a similar right and also because we should recognise that in some instances being numericaly smaller does matter)

I am also interested to know how you understand a "unified" Cyprus.

Again in simple terms - a Cyprus without any internal borders.