Cyprus-Forum.com

[Othellos]

Thank you for your coherent reply, erolz.

If we accept that a valid definition for "ethnic minority" is that of a group that has different national or cultural traditions from the majority, then it becomes evident that:

a) The word ethnic refers to national / cultural traditions and
b) The word minority refers to the population strength of the group

Nowhere in the above it is stated or even implied that the rights of a minority group should be denied or compromised in any way. Therefore, it is logical to assume that being a minority should not be a problem under normal circumstances. I can see your point regarding certain instances when as you write "being numerically smaller does matter". But again, in a politically healthy society there should be such mechanisms in the Laws that would protect any minority (or any other legitimate group of people) from any kind of oppression should these instances arise.

I believe that in Cyprus there is a problem with the way we all choose to use and interpret some words and "ethnic minority" and "federation" are two such examples. While I welcome your definition of a “Unified” Cyprus (= A Cyprus without ANY internal borders), I am afraid that in the minds of many this word is also being misunderstood.

Best regards

O.

[erolz]

Nowhere in the above it is stated or even implied that the rights of a minority group should be denied or compromised in any way. Therefore, it is logical to assume that being a minority should not be a problem under normal circumstances.

I am sorry but being deemed to be nothing but a minority in your own homeland IS a problem, even in ideal circumstances (which Cyprus is far from). This is because the rights you have as a minority are not the same as the rights you have as 'people'. Take the issue of language for example. As a minority you have no right to have your language recognised as an offical language of the state. As a minority you have a right to use your own language and not be persecuted for using it but this is not the same as having a right for your language to be officaly recognised as one of the languages of the state. If we accept that the TC community is nothing more than a minority within Cyprus we then have no right to Turkish being recognised as an offical language in Cyprus. If the GC majority agrees to let Turkish be an offical state language then it is done so as a 'gift' from the GC community and not because we have a right to it - and as such the gift can be removed any time the majority of GC decide to do so. For TC this it is simply not right or fair or just that we should have no right to our own language being an offical language of the state that is our homeland. This is just one example where the difference between being a minority in your own homeland and being (recognised and accepted) as something more than a minority in your own homeland is of material difference. There are others. So in issues like these I believe it is fair just AND democratic for such decisions to require the consent of both communites equally - ie where the democratic principal should be one community one vote. On other issues I agree there should be one person one vote.

I can see your point regarding certain instances when as you write "being numerically smaller does matter". But again, in a politically healthy society there should be such mechanisms in the Laws that would protect any minority (or any other legitimate group of people) from any kind of oppression should these instances arise.

It's not just a matter of being protected from oppression. It is a matter of rights. There is nothiong oppresive about the UK not recognising Indian as an offical language of the state. Yet for TC it is a matter of right that their language is an offical language of the state in their own homeland.

I believe it is fair and just that the TC community in Cyprus have a status of more than just a minority in Cyprus. I also believe we (TC community)have to accept that this status should be less than the full and unlimited rights of a people (if we are to have a united Cyprus) because we share the Island and because we are smaller in number than those we share it with. For me the compromise is in what degree we have as a community a right to self determination and not if we have that right at all (to any degree). It seems to me that for many GC it is already a compromise to them to accept that TC should have _any_ rights greater than those of a minority. As long as this remains the case it is hard to see how any settlement that will last and meet the needs and aspirations of all communites in Cyprus can be agreed. It is simply not enough to accept to 'gift' us certain 'privileges' - these have to seen and accepted as a basic right of our community and nothing less.

[-mikkie2-]

Erol,

Your example of the use of the Turkish langugae to support your view I think is a bit tenuous. In Cyprus, the TC's are a SIZABLE minority, as opposed to just a minority.

Your assumption that Turkish would not be officially recognised and that you would be forced to speak another language are just not true. The TC's always had their own schools for example. Because of day to day business and interaction, many TC's spoke Greek because in the main, they would be dealing with GC's in most cases. On the flip side, fewer GC's spoke Turkish. That is why the few mixed schools used English as the main language.

Now because of our forced separation very few TC's speak or understand Greek and even fewer GC's understand Turkish.

It is unquestionable that Tukish will not be an official langugae of Cyprus once a solution is reached. The rights of TC's can equally be safeguarded under a unitary state structure. But since we are now geographically seperated and the TC leadership wants to keep us at arms length in a future Cyprus then what can we do?

Bold steps from both sides seem to be lacking in this regard. The reluctance to do anything that undermines our respective positions is not a good basis to form a solution.

[Piratis]

Erolz, things like Turkish being an official language are already what we have since 1960.

I see Turkish written on Cyprus pounds, on my ID and passport and it has never bothered me. Neither I've heard anybody ever complain about this. It is considered something perfectly normal and harms nobody.

So why don't you list us here what TCs should have that is more than what minorities get?

If are things like language that will not limit human rights, democracy and independence of Cyprus, then I have absolutely no problem with you having them!

I am expected to believe this and trust upto my life and security on this? That when the balance of power shifts there would be no attempts by GC to (justly in their mind - as they only agreed under duress and force in the first place) rollback any concessions granted to the TC - that were never a right of TC but merely a gift from GC given under duress?

The point is that if an unfair situation(solution/no solution) exists when the balance of power will shift the situation in Cyprus will shift as well. This is irrelevant as to what we agree or what we don't agree today.

The only way for a permanent solution is the one that there will be no such balance between "us" and "them", and we will all be "us".

[erolz]

Your assumption that Turkish would not be officially recognised and that you would be forced to speak another language are just not true

You misunderstand me. I make no such assumption. I am just trying to explain why there is a difference between the the TC community being deemed to be a minority and being deemed to be more than a minority. As a minority we have no right to Turkish being an offical language of Cyprus. Do you not think that is should a right (rather than a gift / concession).

I used language because it is 'clear example' of the point I am tryiong to make. You may feel it is irrelvant if it is granted to the TC communiy as a right or as a gift but for TC this difference is very real.

There are many more examples that could be used that have varying degrees of 'clearness' and in the past I have suggested some others. In the past the defining issue was 'enosis' - though today this is no longer the 'live' issue it was, but the point is the same. As a minority TC had no RIGHT to block enosis. As more than a minority (in their own country) they did have such a RIGHT.

The point I am trying to make is that their is a real difference between being deemed a minority in your own country and being deemed more than a minority. For TC (imo) this is the core issue. When it is so clear that (many) GC believe the TC commuity actualy has no more rights in Cyprus than those that any minority has it is hard to see how we can create a unifed Cyprus. Such an acceptance is (for me at least) a fundamental and basic requirment for creating a unifed Cyprus and yet after 60 plus years it would seem that this is a requirement that is in excess of what GC are prepared to accept.

I hope that is a bit clearer ?

[Piratis]

I hope that is a bit clearer ?

It will be much better when you give us some more examples in addition to the language one.

By the way, you keep saying "a minority in your own country". The way you say this it sounds like minorities are supposed to be foreigners. Actually it is quite the opposite. E.g. we have a lot more British than Armenians in Cyprus, but British are not a minority while the Armenians are.

Official minorities are always people that are a "minority in their own country".

[erolz]

So why don't you list us here what TCs should have that is more than what minorities get?

Because is there any point if you insist that any status above that of minority for the TC community in Cyprus is unjust, unfair and if given is only given reluctantly and as as a gift? Unless you (GC) are prepeared to accept that on some issues the TC community has a just RIGHT to a status greater than that of a minority is there any point in trying to define in which areas these rights exist?

Actualy we have been here before and I have previously given a rough definition of where there should be 'equlity' of communites and where there should not. From memory to recap. On issues where the material affect is different for the two communites there should be equality of the communities (like the example I refer to below as an alternative to language) in any decision. On issue where there is not such a difference (like what the voting age should be or the age of consent) then there should be a straight one person one vote.

An alternative example of an issue that would have a material difference on the two communites I refer to an earlier post of mine in the thread "Issues of equality"

However the idea that the above are the only issues where there might be differences between the communites is absurd and simplistic [language and religion and culture]. Lets just consider one possible difference (and there are numerous issues that could be 'muted'). Let's say that the new federated RoC decides to restrict investment from non EU countries. Further let's suppose this affects GC businesses to no degree as 99% of their external investment comes from EU countries anyway but that it affects TC businesses to a major degree as a much higher degree of their external investment comes from non EU countires. In your 'idea' of a federation the GC could simply enforce this legislation, as they represent the 'bigger' of the two federal elements (communites) and nothing would protect TC intrests from the negative impact. In my idea of a federation the legislation would require the consent of the two communites. If the TC community felt that the legislation was detrimental to their interests then they could refuse to give consent unless their concerns at the effects were taken into consideration and the legislation modified or some for of 'compensation' agreed for the negative affects on TC businesses.

If are things like language that will not limit human rights, democracy and independence of Cyprus, then I have absolutely no problem with you having them!

You say that this does not affect you human rights yet one could easily make an argument that it does. For a state to support two (or more) offical languages has a very real financial cost. Why should a majority of GC pay for the state to provide all offical notices in a 'minorites' langauge - and if a majority of GC decide they do not wish to pay for this extra language why should the 'will of the Cypriot people' not be enforcable - without let or hinderance. I am not saying this is going to happen or is likely - I am trying to say that without a recognition of a status of more than a minority for the TC community there is no basis on which the TC community could stop it should it happen.

By the way, you keep saying "a minority in your own country".

I use this expression to highlight the difference between a TC minority community living in say the UK and what rights they should have vs a TC 'minority' community in Cyprus and what rights they should have. I do not think that TC in the UK have a RIGHT to Turkish being an offical language in the UK. I do think they have such a RIGHT in Cyprus.

To try and summarise. Imo.

It must be accepted that the TC community in Cyprus has a status greater than that of just a minority. That such acceptance is fair and just. That any solution that grants 'extra' rights (over those of just a minority)but defines them not as rights but as 'gifts or concessions' is not going to be stable. That without an acceptance that TC have a right to such things there will always be a concern that they will be granted 'under duress' and that when the situation allows they will be be removed.

For reference I would also refer to the following historic thread that covers much of the same ground. http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=426

Can any GC on this forum state that they accept that the TC community SHOULD have a RIGHT to a status greater than that of just a minority and that such recognition is fair and just? I am beginning to wonder.

[insan]

According to GC side's "democratic" solution thesis, the federal government should be above the two constituent states administrations by all means...


This means giving the GC community full control over Cyprus and TC administration... This means giving the strings of TC community in hands of GC ruling elite... This means without the approval and acceptance of GC ruling elite, TCs have no right and freedom for anything... No matter what Cyprus constitution says about it like T-Papa said a while ago... The excuses can easily be created on the basis of majority rule and "democrasy" ...


Let's talk about some probable situations we may face under the circumstances where GCs have full control over Cyprus and TC administartion...

GC politicians under influence/pressure of big capital owner GCs can easily introduce bills and pass them in the senate in favour of themselves. In this situation TC senators have the right to protest the discriminative attittude of GC senators, can bring the issue to supreme court and if no satsfactory result could have been taken, can bring the issue to international courts. This kind of highly probable to happen situations will oppress most of the TCs and undoubtly cause many of them to sell their proprties to GC big capital owners and flee other countries... As a consequence of this "natural" and "democratic" evolution period, TC population will reduce to %3, %5 ... And finally the dream of Hellenization of Cyprus will come true...



If you give your strings in hands of some who you don't trust or are not reliable(I mean the politicians and greedy big capital owners not the vast majority of GC community) means your fate is in their dirty hands...



We all know that existence of TC community in Cyprus hasn't got the same meaning with the existence of Russians, Brits, Latins, Maronites etc...


It is a well known fact that there are different political groups within TC community which has various relations with various political groups in Turkey. Some %20-25 of TCs have strong national feelings and relations with various political and economical groups of Turkey... Some %30-40 have moderate feelings and relations with mainland Turks and the rest have weak feelings and relations with mainland Turks... I think this is also something which frightens/disturbs some political groups of GCs...



This is only a fictitious scenario I made upon the idea what might happen in Cyprus incase of GCs have full control over Cyprus...


What do you think? What worst may happen in a Cyprus where GC politicians and big capital owners have full control over Cyprus.. ? What's the occurence probability of the above scenario ?

[pantelis]

If you give your strings in hands of some who you don't trust or are not reliable(I mean the politicians and greedy big capital owners not the vast majority of GC community) means your fate is in their dirty hands...

Yiassou Insan,
What are trying to say, above? Please be more direct, because I am loosing....one more time!

As you very well know, all your fears, of the future, in a truly United Cyprus of equal citizens, already came true, over the 30 years of the separation.
Do you deny that the level of corruption and discrimination is greater in Turkey(mainland) than in the occupied part of Cyprus?
Is the trade embargo, the biggest problem of the Turkish Cypriots or is it the fact that they got too close the Turkish kind of life and governance? If not, can you please list and rank the problems in the occupied part of Cyprus and then compare them with a similar list of Turkey's problems. Who are better off, the Turks or the TCs? Where is the influx of population?

In all democratic free market economies, the Rich, are always better off. Their wealth gives them head start and advantages over the poor. The portion of the people in the middle (middle class) is what matters and measures the level of freedom and prosperity, in a free society.

Over the last 30 or 40 years, the Cypriots who live in the free areas of Cyprus have seen a much higher rate of increase in their standard of living, than the mainland Turks or the "free" and "safe" Turkish Cypriots.
Why?
It would make sense, for the TCs, to begin seeking ways of sharing Freedom in Cyprus, especially after they experienced their short-lived success of "sharing" only its Wealth.

[pantelis]

Erol,
In the US, minorities are treated special. If you need any ideas of how special, please use google.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z ... D&summ2=m&

http://phoenix.gov/BUSINESS/mwbecert.html
http://www.mbda.gov/

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... tnG=Search