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THE SAVAGES STRIKE AGAIN

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Kikapu » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:49 am

miltiades wrote:For your information the last film I watched , and I mean this , was BEN HUR in 1963 ,I watch nature programmes as well as political debates , current affairs , documentaries as well as comedy shows..


Miltiades,

Now I understand why you did not take part in the "top 5 movies topic", because you would have been 4 movies short.!!! The first film I remember watching in Cyprus in 1964, I believe it was" The last train from gun hill". I still enjoy seeing it now, when ever it comes on TV.

Since you enjoy good political debates, let me give you a great source for good discussions on American politics. It is a radio station from my great city of San Francisco. This has to be the best station in the country. It is a all news and talk radio with host that have various views. Since your views reflect mostly the "right wing", you will do yourself a great favour by listening some views from the "left wing". The two hosts that you will enjoy listening are, Bernie Ward and Ray Taliaferro. Their shows are in late evening to early morning Monday to Friday, local time. Since UK is 8 hours in front, Bernies show will be at 6-9am and Rays show from 9am to 1pm UK time. You have the choice to listen to it live or tune into their "archives" which the shows are recorded and saved for 24 hours, so that you can listen to it anytime, within the 24 hours of the end of the show. The name of the radio station is KGO Newstalk 810 www.kgo.com . Look forward to some feedback from you in the near future on these shows.
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Postby Landis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:22 pm

cypezokyli wrote:would you be kind enough to share your sources landis ?
bc sth like that i ve never heard before!!

thanks


Fisrt, let me correct my gross error. Saddam was in power for 24 years, not 15 so this brings the daily count to approximately 86 to 114 deaths per day. My apologies.

Also, risking my credidibilty, I have to admit that my source is not public. However, the information itself is widely available. There are many sources for the information. The numbers vary somewhat but generally and most often go up to one million. You will find many that include the death toll from the Iran-Iraq war but the numbers of casualites in that war alone is around one million.

Probably the best credible public information available will be at the International Committee of the Red Cross. Under international law, this is the body responsible for official counts of the missing and dead.

Another credible source would be the Carnegie Moscow Centre. There is also a website called Iraqi Body count but I cannot attest to its credibility.

A review of Saddam's criminal charges results in a minimun of 180,000 deaths during his regime and points out the numbers are much higher but almost impossible to estimate as mass graves are still being discovered.

Iraqi deaths since March 2003 is between 50000 and 80000. This includes military and civilian deaths.
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Postby Landis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:58 pm

Kikapu I agree with you. The US hated Iran and saw the Iran-Iraq was as way to get at Iran without being directly involved. But your analysis of the Kuwait invasion and what followed are too neat. The US political involvement in the Middle East is so supremely complicated that I cannot even begin to address it. Sanctions themselves do not kill civilians, the leaders of sanctioned countries redirect resources from those who need it most so that they are not deprived. Also the first Gulf War was a UN mandate led by the US.
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Postby cypezokyli » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:34 pm

landis, i do not want to get into a discussion with you about numbers.
it is my belief, also concerning the cyppro , that numbers are not important.
but as your calculations have proven, life is in no way better for the iraqis.

from this source
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 404-1.html

which you can understand how objective it is, i could some up around half a million people (the bastard :evil: )
most of them till 1991.

afterwards as this article admits , the sanctions took over. once again in an attempt to harm , saddam , they punished a whole population (that was under a dictatorship !!!! ) . imo , it was clear who would starve and who wouldnt and yet the pursuit this strategy for years. 400 000 children!!
not to mention , that besides that , the food-for-oil scandal broke out , showing a number of UN members receiving huge commissions in order to provide saddam what he needed and they themselves receiving some 000 000s $ of gifts....while ofcource kids were dying.

i am not trying to excuse saddam here.
it is just annoying to read some times comments of the type : dont you see they have elections now!
while the life of the average person , in terms of security and survival didnot improve a bit. what do elections bring in a country , where bombs explode 3-4 times per day ?

stubbornly refusing to accept the tragic mistakes the west did in the case with irak , i am afraid they will repeat them again. as i have said before , even reliable pro-invasion magazines like "the economist" have more than once, reported that those who planned this operation, are a bunch of loosers.
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Postby miltiades » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:35 pm

Cypezokyli , the more these killings go on in Iraq the more I believe that these people should have been left in the very capable hands of Sadam and his henchmen .They do not appear to deserve democracy , they need democracy like they need a hole in the head.They just aren't ready yet. Give them a few hundred years and perhaps they might want to try it.
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Postby Kikapu » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:44 pm

miltiades wrote: they need democracy like they need a hole in the head..


They are getting both, thanks to Bush/Blair team.!!!
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Postby cypezokyli » Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:17 am

miltiades wrote:Cypezokyli , the more these killings go on in Iraq the more I believe that these people should have been left in the very capable hands of Sadam and his henchmen .They do not appear to deserve democracy , they need democracy like they need a hole in the head.They just aren't ready yet. Give them a few hundred years and perhaps they might want to try it.


bc democracy miltiades , has to come from within.
bc democracy is not forced on people , but the people should demand it themselves.
bc almost all the democracies fail at the beggining.
democracy needs a lot of blood to become functionable.

the bush administration just needed to read a couple of books. even american ones . the expected outcomes were there
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Postby miltiades » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:46 am

When treating a severely sick person that refuses treatment it is not unreasonable to encourage treatment .The Iraqis are still in medieval times , this the West should have realised . Their society and many more societies in the M.East are struggling to come to terms with the 18th century never mind the 21st. For as long as these people tolerate and succumb to the ideology responsible totally for their problems they will always have conflicts.The West should better re assess these nations.
You Cypezokyli ought to also re assess your conviction of the righteousness of these nation's actions.
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Postby cypezokyli » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:41 pm

just to keep up with the latest civilized developments.

BBCs comment
If an increasingly isolated US, with anaemic support from Britain, continues to support or even encourage Israel's absolutist approach, the consequences could be dire both in Lebanon and in the wider region.


There are signs of a rapprochement between radical Sunni and Shia factions which could rebound massively on the US
Israel would continue with a prolonged campaign of destruction and running warfare in southern Lebanon, with more destructive raids further north.

That situation would be unlikely to remain static and confined.

Already, there are signs of a rapprochement between radical Sunni and Shia factions which could rebound massively on the US if it gains wider ground.

The Hezbollah operation of 12 July was apparently launched at least partly in support of the embattled (Sunni) Hamas in Gaza, perhaps at the prompting of their mutual supporter Iran.

So the seeds of co-operation between Sunni and Shia radical groups are already there, and - encouraged by Iran and Syria - they could start sprouting elsewhere in the region.


dont say i didnot tell you, what are the results of violence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5223210.stm
There is an alternative, favoured by most of the international community apart from the US and Israel: an immediate ceasefire, followed by negotiations to address the underlying issues and stabilise the truce.

Hezbollah itself is willing to agree on an immediate ceasefire and an exchange of prisoners that would see the two captured Israeli soldiers return home.



on other developments , thats how israell interpreted the inability of the International community to reach an agreement
The US state department has dismissed as "outrageous" a suggestion by Israel that it has been authorised by the world to continue bombing Lebanon.

what can i say...
i just dont know why the american goverment is complaining !!! :shock: :shock:


and :
Two mortar rounds have hit a convoy of vehicles carrying civilians escaping the violence in southern Lebanon.

The BBC's Jim Muir, who was with the convoy, said two people - a driver and a television cameraman in a German television car - were wounded when the rounds exploded next to their vehicle.

The convoy, organised by the Australian embassy, was returning to the port city of Tyre from the border village of Rmeish, where hundreds of people have been trapped by the Israeli offensive.

Our correspondent says the cars were clearly marked as a press and civilian convoy, and that individual journalists had been in contact with the Israelis who knew about the journey.

A BBC security adviser travelling in a car behind the German television car said he believed the mortar rounds had been fired from the Israeli side.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5223940.stm


i hope i dont have to post what happenned to the SC resolution condemning the killing of UN personnel
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