Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Brother, in general I agree with you. If all Cypriots were like you then the Cyprus problem would have never existed.

Unfortunately, while most Greek Cypriots got over the idea: "We are Greeks and we want union with Greece", most Turkish Cypriots didn't get over the idea: "We are separate nation and we want taksim".

We are either one nation, or we are not. If we are, then all citizens should be equal among each other. Each one should have equal voting power, equal responsibilities, and equal rights. This of course does not exclude measures to safeguard the uniqueness of TCs.

But if what we are going to have is an association between two almost independent states, then what good is that for us?
If some parts of "my" country are not really mine, then why should the money I pay for taxes go there?? Why should those "others" have the power to block every decision the great majority wants to take?
If the want to be "others" then fine, let them keep 18% of land as their population is, and thats it.

What I am saying is that a disguised partition like the Annan plan is worst than a "regular" partition. I would rather live in a smaller country, rather than a bigger, undemocratic banana republic that can collapse at any time.

[brother]

I find that the arguements are usually a form of paranoa more than anything else, what if the majority gc got everything their way i say to myself, well if there is safeguards then you will only ever do whats good for all of us, whats happened in the past should stay in the past not used to blight our present and future, i personally worry that unless we unite we will spend our lives wondering what would have happened if the two halves of the apple came togethar.

[Alasya]

Piratis Quote:

"We are either one nation, or we are not".


Is it not possible then to have more than one nation living in one nation-state?
I argue that this is possible and already exists in the World. People throughout the World have multiple identies, its perfectly normal.

Look at Canada where you can be Canadian, Quebecois, or Acadian, or Belgium where you can be Flemish or Walloon, France where there are Breton and Corsicans, Spain with the Basques and Catalans, or the best example closer to Cyprus` experience in the ethnic fruit cake of Bosnia Hercegovina. The Bosnian Muslims part of this federation with the Bosnian Serbs and Croats define themselves as a nation. They are the only people in the World, who for them "Muslim" has an ethnic or nationalistic connotation, and not just a religious one.

The Annan plan attempted unsucessfully (thanks to a G/C No vote), to establish two constituent states under one state.

This already exists in the UK. Scotland, England and Wales as well as Northern Ireland are all constituent states of the UK, with their own parliaments, legal systems, education systems etc. By association they are united, but as is often the case, people from Scotland may define themselves as Scottish and / or British and same for people from other parts of the UK. This does not mean the UK will necessarily violently split up.

[insan]

Unfortunately, while most Greek Cypriots got over the idea: "We are Greeks and we want union with Greece", most Turkish Cypriots didn't get over the idea: "We are separate nation and we want taksim".

The ones who created the Taksim idea as a reaction to GCs Enosis idea were the TC nationalist right winged ruling elite together with Turkey's nationalist right winged ruling elite. Only the extreme right wingers which were no more than %2-3 of total TC population gave them support.. Ordinary TCs had nothing to do with it... Leftists resisted and defended the united Cyprus but obliged the take side with the Taksimists because AKEL switched off to support Enosis in 1948-67 period.


It is a fact that Enosis petition had been signed by %97 of GCs in mid-50s...

It is a fact that all GC ideological groups and as a consequence of this, vast majority of GC community supported Enosis until 1967. GC left abandoned the Enosis idea after mid-60s but right wingers continued to give support to Enosist leading elite.. And I don't think they have changed their minds...


Today in TC community, together with settlers; the ones who want Taksim can't be more than %35. Vast majority of them are supporters of Denktash and Eroglu either for their self-interests or fears ... So Piratis, how did you come up with a baseless claim that most TCs didn't get over the Taksim idea...

[metecyp]

Today in TC community, together with settlers; the ones who want Taksim can't be more than %35

I think even 35% is too much as an estimate. Especially in the younger generation, nobody believes in taksim anymore.

[-mikkie2-]

GC left abandoned the Enosis idea after mid-60s but right wingers continued to give support to Enosist leading elite.. And I don't think they have changed their minds...

Insan, I would say that the number of GC's that want enosis now is in single figure %. We have stood on our own two feet now for a long time and run our own affairs. Especially after what Greece did to us in 1974, that was the final nail in the coffin for enosis. Yes, we identify ourselves as Greek but that does not mean we want to be part of Greece. You should know this by now.

And anyway, what possible benefit can we get with enosis? I do not know anyone that espouses it or secretly harbours manic intent for enosis. It is over. The EU offers us so much more opportunities - a new leaf has been turned in Cyprus. Its only a question of when, not if the TC's join us in this new path.

The problem the TC's have and always had is a lack of governance. That is the real problem that you have because everything is done for you by the 'motherland'. And you are still being sold the worn out thesis that the GC's are hellbent on enosis at the earliest opportunity in order for you to still be controlled.

[insan]

Insan, I would say that the number of GC's that want enosis now is in single figure %. We have stood on our own two feet now for a long time and run our own affairs. Especially after what Greece did to us in 1974, that was the final nail in the coffin for enosis.

I don't think the nationalists, cadres and right winger GC politicians who once participated actively for Enosis share the same opinions with you. You say "we", but we all know that GC community never have been "we" like TC community or any other comunities/peoples existed in the world...

Yes, we identify ourselves as Greek but that does not mean we want to be part of Greece. You should know this by now.

Yes, there's no need to be part of Greece since you decided to be a part of EU where Greece is also a part of it, since mid 80s...

And anyway, what possible benefit can we get with enosis? I do not know anyone that espouses it or secretly harbours manic intent for enosis. It is over. The EU offers us so much more opportunities - a new leaf has been turned in Cyprus. Its only a question of when, not if the TC's join us in this new path.

According to my researches Enosis consists of two steps:

1- Annexation with Greece which there has been no need for that since you became a part of EU.

2- Hellenization of Cyprus which in my opinion is something every GC nationalist and most of the big capital owner GCs dream of...

The problem the TC's have and always had is a lack of governance. That is the real problem that you have because everything is done for you by the 'motherland'.

This a problem of every weak country or/and community in capitalist world. The strongests of the world governing the weaks of the world behind the scenes...

And you are still being sold the worn out thesis that the GC's are hellbent on enosis at the earliest opportunity in order for you to still be controlled

I've told that "I don't think the leading elite of Enosists abandoned the idea of Enosis" in terms of Hellenization of Cyprus and getting rid of "Turkish threat" permenantly...; dear -mikkie2- ...

[-mikkie2-]

I couldn't disagree with you more Insan!

And as a consequence of the 'hellenisation' of Cyprus we have the 'turkification' of northern Cyprus as a counter.

You say:

2- Hellenization of Cyprus which in my opinion is something every GC nationalist and most of the big capital owner GCs dream of...

And this is a conclusion from your extensive research on the subject. Care to quote any sources? Documented evidence? Or is this just you making assumptions.

I can't help but think that all this is a result of your mistrust and suscpision of the GC's.

[magikthrill]

insan, you are insane.

the republic of cyprus joined the EU in May of 2004. I personally, of half greek half cypriot decent, do not know of a single cypriot who would want to be a part of Greece in the past 20 years.

you are disillusioned my friend.

[metecyp]

I personally, of half greek half cypriot decent, do not know of a single cypriot who would want to be a part of Greece in the past 20 years.

We're not talking about being part of Greece here. We mean total GC control of the island and TC having minimal rights. You might be right that not many GCs want to be part of Greece but many GCs consider TCs like they consider Armenians, Latins and Maronites (minorities).