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US type Federal System in Cyprus

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:44 pm

At the moment the EP is largely a symbolic institution and more of a debating house. In the future, if the European Constitution is passed by all member states then its status will change.
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Postby erolz » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:25 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:At the moment the EP is largely a symbolic institution and more of a debating house. In the future, if the European Constitution is passed by all member states then its status will change.


Symbolic or not the fact remains that a Cypriots citizens vote in EP is 'worth more' than a UK citizens right (for one illustration).

RoC population = approx 800,000. MEPs = 6. = 1 MEP for every 133,300 people

UK population = approx 58.6 million. MEPs = 78 = 1 MEP for every 751,200 people

So a Cypriots citizens vote within the EP is 'worth' about 5.6 times as much as a UK citizens vote. I also believe that a UK citizen pay more into the EU than a Cypriot citizen does (but may be wrong).

Totaly unacceptable? Blatantly unfair? Clearly undemocratic? Not 'normal'?
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Postby turkcyp » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:59 pm

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Postby brother » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:06 pm

thanks for that mikkie.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:39 pm

Erol,

So I guess to you the fact that Cypriots have greater representation in the EP is not similar to your own desire for a greater representation in Cyprus?

I wonder who is applying the double standard!
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Postby Piratis » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:07 pm

So let me get this straight. You are saying that GCs are still using the constitution of 1960 without any alterations? Please clarify this for me please. After that we can talk.


Yes. The so called "13 points" were never actually implemented.

About the EU:

As metecyp said, EU is a union of independent states.
You have your country, and they make up the rules. If you accept their rules and you get accepted, then you join. If you don't like it you can leave at any time.

If Turkish Cypriots owned a country just for themselves, then they could come and say: "Hey, lets be partners. Here are the terms. Do you accept them?" If the terms were anything like the Annan plan, we would have simply said "no thanks" and it would be over right there.

However this is not case. The TCs do not own any specific region of Cyprus just by themselves. Northern Cyprus is simply the illegally occupied part of the unitary state called Republic of Cyprus.

Comparing apples (EU-> union of independent countries) and oranges (Cyprus -> one country) is simply not a valid argument.

By the way, EU is becoming more and more integrated. When/if it will become a federation like the US*, it will also function like a country and not like a union of independent countries. The first steps are already made with the new EU constitution.

Have a look at this clause in the new EU constitution for example:

- QUALIFIED MAJORITY VOTING (QMV): All but the most sensitive EU decisions to be decided by a so-called "double majority" system under which an EU decision would need support of 55 percent of member countries, comprising at least 15 of them, and representing 65 percent of the bloc's population.


As you see, even in the EU no single country will have a veto power soon. (apart from the "most sensitive" issues, for which I would accept it TCs had veto power also)

*with this point in my post, I secured that Turkcyp can not accuse me of being "off-topic" :wink:
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Postby turkcyp » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:45 pm

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Postby Piratis » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:13 pm

After 1974, and after you stole our land, raped, killed 6000 people and made refugees 200.000 Greek Cypriots, I am sorry that we forgot to ask you if you allow us to try to survive or not.
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Postby turkcyp » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:49 pm

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Postby erolz » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:23 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:Erol,

So I guess to you the fact that Cypriots have greater representation in the EP is not similar to your own desire for a greater representation in Cyprus?

I wonder who is applying the double standard!


Er no I am arguning (and have argued from way back) that such a situation is an example where such 'greater representation' is not considered 'undemocratic' or 'unjust' or 'unacceptable' - which is what people like Piratis insisit it would be if the TC community in Cyprus were to have any degree of equality with the GC community in Cyprus. However such argument is always just dismissed by those like Piratis (sorry Piratis not 'picking' on you it's just your views are pretty clear) 'not the same' as Cyprus - just like below

Comparing apples (EU-> union of independent countries) and oranges (Cyprus -> one country) is simply not a valid argument.


Well I am sorry but if any equality of the two communites in Cyprus (which Piratis characterises as being a TC vote being worth 4.5 * than of a GC vote) is unfair _in principle_ and undemocratic _in principle_ and are 'not normal' _in principle_, as he does insist , then I am afarid that to my simple mind such principals would also apply in things like the EP as well. That he is willing to insist that such a structure is fundamentaly wrong and undemocratic aand abnormal in Cyprus but of no relevance or import in the EP, is too me simply an argument of 'convience' and not one based on logic or consistent applications of principals. Anyway this is yet another discussion that simply goes round and round periodicaly with each party repeating what they have said before.
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