Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

Woops, I cant beleive 2 people voted no. One is Meteceyp I wonder who the other is.... Sad

I voted no not because personally I don't believe in these things but because I know that some of what insan suggested are not feasible (return of all refugees) or some are simply not acceptable to TC community (unitary state instead of bizonal federation). Personally, I want every refugee to return and I want one truly united Cyprus but I have to be realistic as well.

[-mikkie2-]

Taking the Annan plan as a basis, around 90-95000 GC's return under GC administration, which leaves approx. 70000, and of those only 18% would be able to return in 20 years. That means around 12600 would theoretically return. In reality, none will return as the condidtions regarding their return are against ANY returning due to the way the property issue is resolved (well, not resolved actually).

Now, if all 70000 were given the choice to return, I would suspect only 50% at most would do that, the rest probably taking compensation. Under that situation, if 35000 GC's returned north, would that be a problem to the TC's? Given that there will be 200000 TC's in the north would having a 18% GC minority be a problem?

[magikthrill]

what is everyboyd's opinion on investing in the north? should GCs be allowed to do so, or only TC's ? How about third party's? Say a US citizen?

[insan]

6- Fixed proportional participation on executive body.--> Agree, but fixed and proportional contradicts itself. Nobody knows what will happen 30 years down the road in population terms. I said agree to only proportional part.

7- Fixed equal representaion and power sharing on legislative and judicial bodies. -->Agree, but fixed and proportional contrdicts itself. Nobody knows what will happen 30 years down the road in population terms. I said agree to only proportional part.

Ok. The word "fixed" edited out.


I believe that what I proposed would be the best solution to Cyprus problem because the past 30 years has proved us that every plan based on a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation with restrictions on human rights will not be acceptable for GCs. If some day they have obliged to say "yes" to a plan which restricts their human rights, will be a forced settlement and won't last long... If my solution proposal has been well explained to Cypriots; I'm sure majority of both sides would accept it...


On the other hand, I believe that the sole and long lasting protection for TCs is political equality; i.e, equal representation and power sharing on legislative and judicial bodies.


Another important issue is settlers... It is a fact that some governments of Turkey and Denktash regime illegaly imported 10 thousands of settlers from Turkey... They clearly violated the Geneva convention. We all know that settlers will never be tolerated by majority of GCs as a natural and inevitable consequence of human nature, even they all have abandoned the GC properties they have been occupying and been built new houses... Gang fight, ill-treatment, propagandist accusations, shortly to say; doubtlessly all kind of strifes amongst settlers and GCs will occur, no matter how strict laws there will be and how strict measures have been taken. I'm sure that this inevitable strife will negatively affect the social, economical and political life of all Cypriots... Nevertheless, a similar strife may appear amongst GC and TC extremists but how less their number, lesser the trouble...

[erolz]

I do not agree with the (forced) return of Turkish mainland settlers.

I will admit that my discomfort at this idea is probably more rooted in emotional feelings than logical ones and accept that any logical ones I may present are just a rationalisation of these emotional and reflex feelings that I have.

My personal gut reaction is to sympathise and empthaise with the weak. I do not really know where this instictive reaction comes from but it a part of my being. If I see a single youth being set upon (phyicaly or verbaly) by a group of other youths my instant reaction in that moment is to help and support the single youth. At that instance is does not matter to me what the youth might have done to invite such attacks from the others, what crimes he may have perpetrated or what justification the group may have in their attacks. In that instant my insticitive reaction is to offer support and help for the lone youth.

In terms of the Turkish mainland settlers, as people and human beings, and not as 'political pawns' of any side I see them as the weakest group in the whole mess that is Cyprus today. They are the weakest group economicaly, the weakest group politicaly and the groups that attracts the most scorn, disdain and even hatred from both TC and GC alike. As such my instinct it to 'side' with them.

Certainly on this issue of the Turkish mainland settlers I am at my most 'idealistic'. For me how we as Cypriots (united as Cypriots) decide to deal with this group of people is the ultimate test and challenge. I want there to be a concept of 'Cyriotness' that is nothing to do with being GC or TC. I want this concept to be something that I as an indivdual am proud of, that I would be proud to say 'I am Cypriot'. If we can not show extraordinary compassion and sympathy and empathy for them and if we can only find unity amongst ourselves at their expense and through their forced expulsion from Cyprus then there is little for me to be proud of being a 'united Cypriot'.

I also appologise for the 'holier than thou' and somewhat sanctimonious nature of this post. I try to avoid being so in such an overt manner. However this is an issue that extends beyond mere logic and rationality for me and I know of other way to express my feelings on this subject other than 'emotional appeals'. I also accpet that it is possible that others may interpret my 'views' as not being motivated by that which I claim here it is motivated by and in fact is just a 'cleaver ruse' to try and argue for the non expulsion of settlers because what I actualy want to achieve is the changing of demographics in Cyprus for political reasons and a 'Turkification' of Cyprus. To such accusations I have no response really except to deny them as not the case.

[magikthrill]

your whole "holier than thou" post does make sense. but then it also depends on the way you look at it.

in my opinion the refugees are the ones who are the weakest.maybe not economically necessaryily but they were forced to be uprooted from their homes and lives. that is a devestating violation of basic human rights.

im not sure how the turkish settlers ended up in illegally occupied cyprus but something tells me they didnt have a gun pointed to their head. when i visited northern cyprus last summer my uncle (uprooted from northern cyprus now living in larnaca) told me how you can spot the turkish cypriots from the settlers. and its true you can tell the difference.

TCs are much more like GCs and this is what will help a bizonal country sustain peace. Turkish settlers might be people with feelings but they are living on other peoples land. People who shed blood and tears on that land until it was taken away from them. These refugees are the weak people. Not the illiterate impoverished turkish settlers that will cause the destruction of a united cyprus.

[insan]

In terms of the Turkish mainland settlers, as people and human beings, and not as 'political pawns' of any side I see them as the weakest group in the whole mess that is Cyprus today. They are the weakest group economicaly, the weakest group politicaly

Are you sure of that, erolz?


All of the mainland settlers which were brought in first 10 or 15 years afterwards 1974, granted houses, hotels, motels, restaurants, huge amount of agricaltural land which belong to GCs, free of charge. Do you know that? I don't think so....


They have been granted the right to form political party, elect and run for the elections. Despite of this they voted the well known status-quo parties of TC; either because they didn't want to bite the hand that feed them or other profitable reasons...


Today, the ones who exploit the new comer settlers/seasonal Turkish/Kurdish workers are their own brokers; no one else...

and the groups that attracts the most scorn, disdain and even hatred from both TC and GC alike. As such my instinct it to 'side' with them.

The ones who hate them, actually; are the ones who seemingly care about them to exploit for their self-intersts... Who are they? Status-quoers, their own brokers and some extreme Cypriot nationalists...
So I urge you to make a bit more detailed research regarding the settlers before you decide who is the weak to take side with... I'm sure you wouldn't want to be one of the responsibles of their/our losses and sufferings in a unified Cyprus...

[Alexandros Lordos]

Don't shoot me, but I am one of those who voted No ...

I'll explain why.

1. All foreign troops shall be withdrawn: I fully agree, this is a must for a solution.

2. All refugees will have the right to return: I agree, but this shouldn't mean that they should be able to throw out the Turkish Cypriot current occupants of their house ... a middle solution would have to be found, perhaps building a new home for every refugee who is not entitled to receive his original home.

3. All settlers shall be compensated by Turkey and repatriated: I agree that a large number of settlers should leave, but I disagree with the sledgehammer approach put forward here. Have we asked ourselves to what extent some of the settlers already feel Cypriots, how much they have been assimilated into TC culture? And if some of the settlers are indistinguishable from TCs, then wouldn't the insistence that "everyone must leave" be tantamount to ripping the TC culture apart? I think we need to think harder about who should leave and who shouldn't leave.

4. All refugees who have claims regarding their current or past loss should have recourse to national and international courts: I disagree absolutely, this is a recipe for chaos ... either we solve the Cyprus Problem, fully resolving the issue of reparations within the Solution, or we leave it open-ended, and continue chasing each other in the courts ... A solution without closure would only offer the pretext for further bad feelings and further division.

5. No bizonality, only bicommunality in a unitary state: I would love to see this happen, but I do not believe that the TC side would ever consent to that. The best we can strive for is a solution where the bizonality is more welcoming (ie. GCs to be truly welcome in the north and vice verca), rather than a bizonality based on strict ethnic purity.

6. and 7. - I am not sure I understood the argument, so I will not comment.

[magikthrill]

I certainly won't shoot you, but maybe some of your arguments

2. All refugees will have the right to return: I agree, but this shouldn't mean that they should be able to throw out the Turkish Cypriot current occupants of their house ... a middle solution would have to be found, perhaps building a new home for every refugee who is not entitled to receive his original home.

Nope, all refugees need to have the right to return. If someone is going to get a new house built (assuming the refugee accepts to return to his/her home/land) it shouldn't be the refugee but rather the illegal occupant of the house. This should include GCs living in the south. No right of return means no lasting peace. I think everyone can agree to that.

3. All settlers shall be compensated by Turkey and repatriated: I agree that a large number of settlers should leave, but I disagree with the sledgehammer approach put forward here. Have we asked ourselves to what extent some of the settlers already feel Cypriots, how much they have been assimilated into TC culture? And if some of the settlers are indistinguishable from TCs, then wouldn't the insistence that "everyone must leave" be tantamount to ripping the TC culture apart? I think we need to think harder about who should leave and who shouldn't leave.

I understand your argument here but it will be very difficult to make "exceptions" for turkish settlers. Besides once they leave, they're Turkey's problem - not Cypriots'.

Allowing illegal settlers to remain on the island condones Turkey's breach of international law.

4. All refugees who have claims regarding their current or past loss should have recourse to national and international courts: I disagree absolutely, this is a recipe for chaos ... either we solve the Cyprus Problem, fully resolving the issue of reparations within the Solution, or we leave it open-ended, and continue chasing each other in the courts ... A solution without closure would only offer the pretext for further bad feelings and further division.

im not sure what either of you mean here. but im guessing that if the refugees are allowed to return (or be compensanted if they choose not to return) then I done see why court claims would be necessary.

HOWEVER, any settlement that does not allow people to seek any type of justice is absolutely unfair. of course if the plan adheres to international law (as opposed to the Annan plan) then there should be no problem with this, right?

[insan]

Let me explain you some of the details of my solution proposal:


1- All foreign troops shall be withdrawn.

As soon as possible and grade by grade all foreign troops shall be withdrawn.



2- All refugees will have the right to return.

This means all refugees have the right to return but either they can choose to return or exchange, sell, rent, buy, pay the difference and buy, claims compensation etc. The intentions of refugees can easily be determined by the temporary government of united Cyprus. The temporary government of united Cyprus can made public announcement and call for all refugees to apply to the relevant government offices with all their claims and intentions. Some may claim all of their properties to return, so may would like to exchange a part of his properties and the other part to return , some other may wish to sell, rent or pay the difference and buy.. etc.. etc.. After the applications have been made by refugees, the relevant government offices and their committees will evaluate the claims and requests; then systematically and rapidly will call the relevant parties(owners and occupiers) to negotiate and compromise. What if the owners and occupiers havent't been compromised? (Please refer to article No 4)



3- All settlers shall be compensated by Turkey and repatriated.

This is also an issue which will be solved in a time period, grade by grade....




4- All Cypriots who have claims regarding of their past or present losses and ask for justice will have the right to apply national and international courts.

This article is also related with the family members of martyred and assassinated Cypriots.


5- No bizonality, just bi-communality in a unitary state.

This one seems well understood...



6- Proportional to population ratio participation on executive body.

This means that, participation in all excecutive state units will be based on population percentage of two communities.



7- Irrespective to two comunities population ratio, equal representaion and power sharing on legislative and judicial bodies.

This means that each of the two communities will be represented by equal number of MPs in Legislatures Council and all of its sub committees in order to balance the political powers of each community. This doesn't mean all of the TC or GC MPs will vote against each others bill introductions and cause the political system to collapse... Most probably the leftists, rightists, social democrats, Greens etc will form seperate alliances in various degrees; depend upon the issues...


Please feel free to ask for more details...