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Proposal to Simplify Property Issue

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Kifeas » Wed May 04, 2005 9:54 am

MicAtCyp wrote:
Mic wrote: The fact is that the value of land when sold outside the juristiction of the State is infinite


Kifeas wrote: What do you mean outside the jurisdiction of the state?


Wrong syntax or inaccurate explanation from my end perhaps...
An example of this would be for the Greek state to sell part of the border land of Greece to the Bulgarian State and abandoning any future juristiction on those lands. Or to sell lets say 16 square kilometers of land of Turkey to the USA to have them as completely sovereign and independent state or an extension of their American state.These sales are not permitted even if the buyer is willing to pay 100 times the value of that land. Sales of properties to other countries (e,g to have an embassy) are permitted as long as the State retains juristiction over those properties. Thats what I wanted to say.

Kifeas wrote: My property in the north is not outside the jurisdiction of the RoC.


Exactly! And it has YOU in hand to substantiate her juristiction.Losing you and losing all the other GC refugees for TCs residing in the occupied, and you will see how much juristiction she will be left with in the end! So it has very valid legal reasons to protect her own existence as a state by depriving you that right, and like I said not even the ECHR can save you, because your individual rights are not superior to the rights of the State to protect itself. You can of course ask compensation for it as every other refugee.The state violated the rights of the refugees all these years to the worse possible degree.(My wife is a refugee by the way, so I know how you feel)

wrote: Why not to any other E.U citizen or to a TC residing in the occupied areas? Have all these TC citizens of the RoC ever been deprived of their rights to buy and sell under the legal system of the RoC?


Well the fact is the TCs living in the occupied are deprived the right to sell or buy immovable properties in RoC.And you are also deprived your right to sell to TCs in the occupied.And there is not any chance that you would buy any land from a TC or a Gc in the occupied is there? Regarding the EU citizens tell me which one would be willing to buy your property and then buy it again from the TC who "has" it. And what if he buys it from you and the TC refuses to sell??


Of course I understand your question concerns the reasons why the RoC would deprive you the right to sell your property in the occupied to an EU citizen if that very remote possibility ever occured. To this question I say it will not deprive you that right. Because it will continue have control on that citizen through the EU.She will ask for her taxes for that property,for her 10% just for issuing the title and in case that EU citizen goes ahead developing that property "illegally" and violating all our laws he will be in so much trouble that he will curse the day he even bought it from you. And be sure many CID police will be watching his every step. I leave aside the fact that in the end he will not be able to sell it to anyone....


Mike,
We are talking about the sale of a private piece of land. The Republic continues to own all the state land, forestland and the entire infrastructure and continues to have jurisdiction. What nowadays defines state borders and state sovereignty, is not the ownership of private land, but the chart and resolutions of the U.N.
You are giving completely wrong examples in order to prove equally wrong assumptions.

It is like you are saying that if many GCs go to Turkey and buy private land in one single small area of south turkey, then the RoC can claim jurisdiction and ownership of that particular region due to the fact that the majority of private properties in this area are owned by citizens of Cyprus.

Or, is like saying that because the majority of Private land in Peyia village is owned by British citizens this entitles the British government to claim jurisdiction of the entire village of Peyia or even a portion of it.

Mike I understood your point and is no use to give me any more examples or arguments in favour of it. It is not a valid argument in my, and not only, opinion.

As for your assumptions regarding the status of TCs living in the occupied areas, again you are making very wrong assumptions. They remain to be equal citizens of the republic, in law and in practice. They have never been disqualified of being equal citizens. In the same way that they are not prohibited from crossing south, seek employment or medical care like any other citizen, and in the same way that they are issued passports and i.d. cards of the republic, without any discrimination; they are also equally entitled to own their properties either being in the north or in the south and they are also entitled to buy additional properties either in the south or in the north, as long as it is done on a legal basis.

It would have been a catastrophic development for the political and legal interests of the RoC to take an approach similar to the one you suggest or assume, regarding the status and treatment of TCs living in the occupied areas, irrespective of the fact that they support and /or maintain the regime in the north.

P.S.: Why then they were allowed to vote in the elections for the E.U. parliamentary elections together with the rest of Cypriot citizens?
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Postby Kifeas » Wed May 04, 2005 11:06 am

MicAtcyp wrote:So in conclussion yes it will limit you the right to sell to a TC living in the occupied. And it will not lose at the ECHR!


Mike, read again what we have been talking about in this thread. Yes, if the RoC denies to me the right to sell to anyone who is eligible to buy (and this includes all TCs and all E.U. nationals,) my property and transfer the title deeds of this property through the RoC land registry to any eligible buyer, it will loose the case in the ECHR.

MicAtcyp wrote:I know from first hand that you are not the first one who thought about it (my koumbaros from Morfou tried it 2(?) years ago) and there was absolutely no lawyer who adviced him to go to the EU. He revolted exactly the same way you revolt today, and what the lawyers told him is what in general lines I tell you here.


You see! That proves that you do not know what we are talking about and consequently you do not know what you are talking about. You mix the case of your Koumbaros from Morfou and if I understand correctly you are referring to the Polycarpou case. Is this what we are talking about. Polycarpou expressed interest to claim compensation from the "TRNC" property commission. He withdraw his interest, presumably after some pressure exerted over him as this would have meant indirect recognition of "TRNC" and acceptance of “TRNC” jurisdiction over the area in which his property is located (Morfou.)

Do not mix eggs with apples.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Wed May 04, 2005 2:12 pm

Turkcyp wrote: And the pressure for not to sell on you will start
growing first from government to media to society. Get
ready for it. And as MicAtCyp said I am sure you will
also find very hard to find a lawyer that will take your
case. May be a TC lawyer will.


Sorry Turkcyp but this is NOT how I said it. I said he will not find a lawyer who can can win his case at the ECHR on legal grounds. All my argumentation to Kifeas was that the right of the state to defend itself superseeds his personal human right.And in this respect all he can ask is for compensation for been deprived that right.This is quite different from what you said. You actually implied that our lawyers are afraid which I can assure you is totally faulty! All the cases of TCs against the RoC were undertaken and WON by GC lawyers! Sener Levent is now against the RoC and his lawyer is again a GC (Mr Soteris Drakos) and he will WIN.His case is now at the Supreme Court and 12 judges are hearing.

wrote: turkcyp wrote:
-p.s. I am not interested inbuying your land. but
I am definetly interested in fiding the owner of
the plot that I have built my new house on and buy
it from him


You cant Turkcyp.For the same reasons I explained to Kifeas.The right of the owner to sell it to you is limited under the circumstances.

wrote: For example open a TC newspaper you will
find GC advertisements in it. I know many people in the
north that tried to put an ad in GC paper but they have
been refused, even all their business were completely in
TC land.


What kind of advertisements the GCs place in newspapers Turkcyp.Can you give us some information/examples?

By the way I ve personally seen many times advertisements in GC papers of the Colony hotel in Kyrenia however with the clarification at the end of the add that it is built on 100% TC land and is owned 100% by TCs.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Wed May 04, 2005 11:45 pm

Kifeas wrote: your Koumbaros from Morfou and if I understand correctly you are referring to the Polycarpou case.


No,no,no, God forbit, that traitor is not by koumbaros. I talk about my REAL koumbaros the best man at my wedding.

Kifeas wrote: Mike I understood your point and is no use to give me any more examples or arguments in favour of it. It is not a valid argument in my, and not only, opinion


Kifeas, perhaps the only way to sort this out is to talk with an expert lawyer. I suggest you contact Achilleas Demetriades in Nicosia and see what he will tell you. I am absolutely certain you cannot sell to a TC who resides in the occupied and this is due on legal reasons.

By the way don't be so sure that idiot Polycarpou removed his case from the pseudo committee because of the public contempt and pressure against him.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu May 05, 2005 12:18 pm

Kifeas, perhaps the only way to sort this out is to talk with an expert lawyer. I suggest you contact Achilleas Demetriades in Nicosia and see what he will tell you. I am absolutely certain you cannot sell to a TC who resides in the occupied and this is due on legal reasons.


You cant Turkcyp.For the same reasons I explained to Kifeas.The right of the owner to sell it to you is limited under the circumstances.


Kifeas did you consult a GC lawyer as to the sale of GC land in the north, I have spoken with an estate agent friend who says there would be many interested buyers if the "RoC" would allow such sales. People like erolz who have built homes on GC land would also be willing to carry our these transactions if it was feasibly possible.

Let me know soon.
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Postby magikthrill » Thu May 05, 2005 2:01 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Kifeas did you consult a GC lawyer as to the sale of GC land in the north, I have spoken with an estate agent friend who says there would be many interested buyers if the "RoC" would allow such sales. People like erolz who have built homes on GC land would also be willing to carry our these transactions if it was feasibly possible.

Let me know soon.



It seems to me like many buyers dont really give a rats ass of what the "RoC" allows anyway, so whats the big deal?
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu May 05, 2005 3:38 pm

magikthrill if you cant predict the implications of the "RoC" allowing the sale of GC land in the north you are being very naive.

It would help resolve the grivences of many GCs or isnt that what the "RoC" wants. Maybe thats why to date they have persuaded many GCs not to proceed with any such actions.
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Postby Harry » Thu May 05, 2005 3:59 pm

TRNC- Thefttist Republicic of North Cyprus constantly contradicts every law that every country is for. How long do they think its going to last this way and expect to be nationally legal? They know its illegal, they want to be legit, and they want to yell at everyone who tries to do things legal. Amazing. I wonder how they do business with others than themselves. Their shady and they don't even know it. Only time will make them realize that everyone is going to catch up to their scheme. Sooner or later the rest of the world will find out about this. Most of the world doesn't even know this problem exists, only a select few. In time they'll find out.
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Postby brother » Thu May 05, 2005 4:02 pm

Harry,

your comments are uncalled for and inflamatory and degrading, maybe thinking a little before typing would help, this is not the way to go forward.

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Postby Harry » Thu May 05, 2005 4:11 pm

Brother, excuse me speaking the truth. I don't individually attack anyone or even yourself. It's about how a nation who is trying to go legit, thinking it can be done their way and only their way. It's only maybe going to work in the next life, not this one. The sooner you all realize the better for both of us.
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