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A poll about bizonality

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

To what extent should the solution of the Cyprus Problem be bizonal?

No bizonality - the right to settle freely anywhere on the island should be upheld
6
60%
Flexible bizonality - GCs should be welcome in the north and TCs in the south, so long as they do not exceed 33% of the population
4
40%
Strict bizonality - GCs should live in the south and TCs in the north, under conditions of ethnic purity
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 10

Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:49 pm

Tcypriot,
Why everytime I read your speaches you remind me of Grivas? I wish you knew Greek to hear him he really spoke exactly the same way like you... Some truths, a lot of destorted lies, plus tooons of nonsense and sentimental crap..
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:21 pm

tcypriot wrote:*about the poll: there're not enough options..No Greek Cypriots in North is very harsh as there are good people in all communities but %33 of the population is also very high taking into account the realities..


You are right - I should have added a fourth option, with 20%.

Also a fifth option of "temporary bizonality" for 15-20 years ...

I think I'll do it again, why not? :)
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Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:14 pm

Alasya wrote: No, absolutely not, a separation of territory does not
necessarily mean two separate states.


It does not necessarily mean that it will not lead to two separate states either! And in my opinion the increase of the checkpoints from 3 that they are today, to 10 if the Anan Plan was adopted combined with all those restrictions in settlement and return of refugees would actually lead to a situation of two separate states in disguise.

Alasya wrote: As for North Nicosia, the area has traditionally been
populated by T/Cs, the Nicosia suburban villages/towns
of Mandres, Gonyeli (Konyali) and Ortakoy, all entirely
Turkish -Cypriot villages and large villages are located
in the periphery of North Nicosia


See how little you know?The Northern part of Nicosia capital was not predominably inhabited by TCs, but of GCs! The 3 Northern suburbs i.e Trachonas, Omorphita, and Neapolis, were predominably inhabited by GCs also. What the TCs had are those few villages outside of Nicosia that you mentioned.
Upon the leaving of the British the TC community got half a million pounds from the British in settlement of all their territorial disputes regarding the Famagusta area. To realise what that amount meant consider that you could buy 1 donum for half a shilling then. Kutchuk got that money and started bying land massively to the North of Nicosia upto Gonyelli in a clear effort to form the first nucleus of a state within a state. If that was not a preparation for taksim (during totally peaceful years) then what was it? This in the end created the first and biggest enclave in Cyprus, that served it's purpose fine during the 1974 invasion....

So instead of reproducing one sided Turkish propaganda, just think what would you do if you were a TC leadership during those times, to fill up that vast empty area with your people?
I am sure you know the answer already. If I were one I would first do a "Bayraktar camide bomba patlamayi"
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Postby insan » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:22 pm

To realise what that amount meant consider that you could buy 1 donum for half a shilling then. Kutchuk got that money and started bying land massively to the North of Nicosia upto Gonyelli in a clear effort to form the first nucleus of a state within a state. If that was not a preparation for taksim (during totally peaceful years) then what was it? This in the end created the first and biggest enclave in Cyprus, that served it's purpose fine during the 1974 invasion....



MicAtCyp, I don't know the details regarding this issue but let's say what you mentioned here is true; What could TC leadership do while GC leadership had been preparing the ground of Enosis since 30's. Really tell me what was feasible for TC leadership to do under those circumstances? Accepting Enosis and being a minority, its future unknown?
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Postby brother » Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:08 pm

That would have suited them fine.
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Postby Alasya » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:15 pm

MicAtCyp wrote

"It does not necessarily mean that it will not lead to two separate states either! And in my opinion the increase of the checkpoints from 3 that they are today, to 10 if the Anan Plan was adopted combined with all those restrictions in settlement and return of refugees would actually lead to a situation of two separate states in disguise"

-That´s a matter of opinion. I personally prefer to think more positively. Other countries have internal separation of territory based on ethnic and or linguistic differences and yet they manage to preserve their national unity and keep the peace for over 200 yreas, and they even use their differences to their advantage-making money. I believe if the will exists on both sides, and people adopt the right attitude and are more positive (less negative), they are flexible and prepared to work at it, then why shouldn´t it work.

However G/C paranoia that the future United Cyprus Republic is doomed to failure and that evil deeds were done in Burgenstock aimed at depriving the G/C of their inheritance will cement partition. People with such an attitude will reject any proposal you present them.


MicAtCyp wrote
"See how little you know?The Northern part of Nicosia capital was not predominably inhabited by TCs, but of GCs! The 3 Northern suburbs i.e Trachonas, Omorphita, and Neapolis, were predominably inhabited by GCs also. What the TCs had are those few villages outside of Nicosia that you mentioned.

What the T/Cs had was more than those three villages! Its amazing how any inteligent person can make such a statement. There were over 19,000 T/C in Nicosia (over 1/3) in 1960 compared to 41,000 G/C in addition to T/C living Gonyeli (quite a large village even then), Mandres, Ortakoy (another large village), not to mention the sizeable presence of T/C in Trahonas and Omorphita. In fact T/C in Nicosia city accounted for over 1/3 of the population.

Omorphita and Trahonas, the "Greek-Cypriot" villages you mentioned were in fact mixed villages, with a substantial Turkish-Cypriot presence. Either you deliberately left out this information or you were misinformed or just plain ignorant. Anyway below are the details for your benefit.

Kaimakli (Kucuk Kaimakli)/Omorphita* (Kucuk Omorphita)
G/C 8175, T/C 5130.

Trahonas in North Nicosia had G/C 2316 and T/C 921. All according to the 1960 population census.

MicAtCyp wrote

"Upon the leaving of the British the TC community got half a million pounds from the British in settlement of all their territorial disputes regarding the Famagusta area. To realise what that amount meant consider that you could buy 1 donum for half a shilling then. Kutchuk got that money and started bying land massively to the North of Nicosia upto Gonyelli in a clear effort to form the first nucleus of a state within a state. If that was not a preparation for taksim (during totally peaceful years) then what was it? This in the end created the first and biggest enclave in Cyprus, that served it's purpose fine during the 1974 invasion....

The issue you are referring to is the alleged financial settlement between Dr.Fazil Kucuk and the British over land owned by Evkaf-the religious foundation. This is another issue and has nothing to do with why enclaves were formed by armed T/Cs.

While I agree that some T/Cs always desired Taksim, I will not accept this as a valid argument for why those enclaves were formed. If you care to type in "Omorphita massacre" Kophinou massacre" or "Tokni masacre" (take your pic) in search, then you may get some idea as to what your own "peace-loving" people were up to from 1963-1974. As my old Geography Master Monsieur LeHoux used to say Every action leads to a reaction.

The fact that ordinary people sympathised with the pro-Taksim terrorists / freedom fighters was because the G/Cs had left them no choice. Rather than making them feel like Cypriots, a part of Cyprus, they used state terror (in the same way that Turkey uses terror against the Kurds in the time of the PKK) against them. This and the hostile attitude G/C had toward T/c hardly inspired T/C confidence in the "government of Cyprus".

By arrogance and their own turkophobic tendancies shaped by decades indoctrination by the Church and by the chain of bad decisions and judgments that they made, they played right into the hands of the T/C extremists. But as usual its more convenient to blame ordinary T/C victims of state terror than admit any wrong doing. However, things appear to be changing, certain more liberal and open-minded G/Cs have admitted their side ill-treated the T/C, its a pity though in the 21st century that you still deny it.

As for your opinion that Kutchuk aimed to build the nucleus of a future state, that is all it is. There are theories that the G/C leadership under Makarios were giving financial help to G/C to buy land from T/C but not allowing the opposite to happen. But lets not get started on theories!

What is true however is that T/C had very few opportunites (unlike G/C) to get government credits to build hotels, other businesses. There was even article on this in the Cyprus Mail (South Cyprus) not so long ago. A minimum requirement then was that the T/C businessman had to have a G/C business partner even if he was funding the development 100%! Sounds very fair!

MicAtCyp wrote
"Bayraktar camide bomba patlamayi"

I´m not going to defend the actions of T/C extremists. But the G/C monopoly of the Cyprus govt back then certainly failed to calm the situation with its gratuitous use of state terror toward the T/C. This hardly helped matters.
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Postby boulio » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:34 pm

mic and alasya this might help your guys argument:

http://www.typos.com.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=28499#top
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Postby Alasya » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:41 pm

I couldn´t access the site, but if its a G/C source I doubt it would be impartial.
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Postby boulio » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:45 pm

Gonyeli had a population of 1377 all turkish cypriots in 1960 is that somewhat accurate?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:50 pm

MicAtCyp wrote:And in my opinion the increase of the checkpoints from 3 that they are today, to 10 if the Anan Plan was adopted combined with all those restrictions in settlement and return of refugees would actually lead to a situation of two separate states in disguise.



MicAtCyp,

Did the Annan Plan provide for 10 checkpoints after the solution? It was my impression that there would be no checkpoints at all, movement would be free. If you are sure about what you said, could you refer me to the part of the Plan that talks about this?
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