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Turkey condemns French 'genocide' vote

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Postby Sotos » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:30 pm

If Turkey stops trading with France it will harm Turkey more than France i think.

the armenians tend to forget that they revolted , and revolutions inevitably lead to them being crashed by empires. that is what empires do.


You blame the Armenians because they revolted and not the Turks for killing a million of Armenians? :shock:
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Postby cypezokyli » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:52 pm

Sotos wrote:If Turkey stops trading with France it will harm Turkey more than France i think.

the armenians tend to forget that they revolted , and revolutions inevitably lead to them being crashed by empires. that is what empires do.


You blame the Armenians because they revolted and not the Turks for killing a million of Armenians? :shock:


have you read my whole post ? !!! :twisted:

i didnot blame the armenians.
i just dont like the argument that one day the turks woke up and decided lets wipe of all armenians.
ofcource the armenians had a right to revolt!

but, the world they lived in was in many ways different from ours. empires have been brutal throughout history, and the ottoman empire is no exception. i am not supporting the empires attitudes. i am only making an observation. a people that revolts against an empire and looses usually pays severe concequences.

the difference is that this time the ottomans didnot only react harsh, but they completely wiped out a whole ethnic group. and that is why the term genocide comes into play..
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Postby Piratis » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:39 pm

but, the world they lived in was in many ways different from ours. empires have been brutal throughout history, and the ottoman empire is no exception.

cypezokyli, the Armenian genocide happened between 1915 and 1923, not ancient history. If we follow your logic then we should also excuse Hitler, since he was also trying to build an empire by oppression and exterminating other people.

Also there is a difference between killing some guerrilla fighters to suppress a revolt and killing over 1 million people including women and children. There is definitely no excuse for what the Turks did.

About the French decision:
Personally I am all for free speech. On the other hand the Turks believe that "free speech" means that they can say whatever comes to their mind and that their "viewpoint" should have the same weight as the facts that clearly indicate the opposite from what they support.

Therefore I support the decision by the French. The Turks should realize that we had enough of their baseless propaganda and lame excuses and that they should finally recognize their wrongdoings and cut the excuses.

Just imagine if the Germans insisted that there was nothing wrong with the extermination of Jews and the atrocities they committed during WWII, and they expected the rest of the world to just accept that kind of racist provocative attitude.
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Postby cypezokyli » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:02 pm

may i ask where do you draw the line between ancient and modern history ?
french revolution , the westfalia treaty , WWI , WWII ?

and why ?
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Postby Piratis » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:14 pm

And what is your point exactly? That a genocide in 1923 could be excused because "empires have been brutal throughout history, and the ottoman empire is no exception" but just 20 years later we could not also excuse the Nazis by saying "empires have been brutal throughout history, and the Nazi empire is no exception".

There is no "line" but things gradually change. So obviously you will judge in a bit different way something that happened 1000 or 2000 years earlier. But here we are talking about 20 years difference and therefore time can not be an excuse.
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Postby Issy1956 » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:55 pm

Piratis,
Shit happens. Its tragic, its sad but you cannot condemn an entire nation as being bad for the actions (if indeed these actions were co-ordinated and deliberate to wipe out an entire nation) of an empire. The Ottoman empire was just that an empire and its death throes led to an awful lot of tragic consequences. If you want to delve into history recent and past you can find lots of things that "civilised" european countries did that we would find unacceptable today-have a look at the behaviour of the European powers in Africa for example (Belgium in the Congo comes to mind) and compared to them the Ottomans dont compare too badly at all.
Personally I think that the Turks should put their hands up and says these things happened under the Ottomans and are regretable but the Turkish Republic of today is not responsible.
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Postby zan » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:46 pm

cypezokyli, the Armenian genocide happened between 1915 and 1923, not ancient history. If we follow your logic then we should also excuse Hitler, since he was also trying to build an empire by oppression and exterminating other people.


It is amazing how you refer to the Germans as Hitler and to us as the TURKS. Are you blaming the Germans as a whole as you are the Turks or not. Their history is more recent. You see your blind prejudice always gets in the way of intelligent discussion.


About the French decision:
Personally I am all for free speech. On the other hand the Turks believe that "free speech" means that they can say whatever comes to their mind and that their "viewpoint" should have the same weight as the facts that clearly indicate the opposite from what they support.



Free speech with Piratis limitations is not free speech. You have confused your self here.


Therefore I support the decision by the French. The Turks should realize that we had enough of their baseless propaganda and lame excuses and that they should finally recognize their wrongdoings and cut the excuses.


By taking away the right to free speech. Contradiction upon contradiction..


Just imagine if the Germans insisted that there was nothing wrong with the extermination of Jews and the atrocities they committed during WWII, and they expected the rest of the world to just accept that kind of racist provocative attitude.

/\
Contradicts
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Also there is a difference between killing some guerrilla fighters to suppress a revolt and killing over 1 million people including women and children. There is definitely no excuse for what the Turks did.



EO,EO---EO,EO,EO,EO---EO---EOKA.
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Postby miltiades » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:24 pm

Issy 1956 , a very commendable post and a mature one which is indicative of a well balanced and educated individual.
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Postby Issy1956 » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:35 pm

Miltiades,
Thank you for your kind comments sir. I think Turkey should be encouraged to be honest about its history(as we all should). There are too many people who just want to bash and demonise Turkey as a knee jerk reaction on an almost racist basis and this is wrong. The Turks on the other hand are far to sensitive and tend to be oversensitive to criticism. It is just as ridiculous to have laws that insult Turkishness (whatever that is) as it is to have those that punish denial of an Armenian genocide. In all honesty I dont know if there was or there wasnt a genocide but this should be a matter for historians not law makers.
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Postby Natty » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:54 pm

Hi, I think that the 'Armenian genocide' issue, is a very sensitive issue..and to be honest with you, I don't know whether the French government made the right decision...maybe you could say that, by passing that law, it's stopping people's freedom of speech..I don't know..
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