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Best Solution In 4 Steps

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby insan » Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:58 pm

Oppress the weak Image Submit to the strong.








Image



Survival of the fittests!



http://www.mentaldisorder.com/psychology.html
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Postby Piratis » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:00 am

I talk about democracy and human rights and then you tell me about extermination plans. Extermination plans are not compatible with human rights and therefore have nothing to do with what I am asking.
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Postby Piratis » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:02 am

I think Insan went Insane :shock:
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Postby insan » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:10 am

I talk about democracy and human rights and then you tell me about extermination plans. Extermination plans are not compatible with human rights and therefore have nothing to do with what I am asking.


Once Makarios and his friends had seemingly been talking about democrasy and human rights, but behind the doors they were creating and implementing the extermination plan of TCs. Today there's nothing different of what T-Pap, Hellen's ruling and leading elites execute behind the doors...
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Postby Piratis » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:31 am

How do you know? Are you behind those doors too?
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Postby insan » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:37 am

How do you know? Are you behind those doors too?



If you follow the goings-on well and examine them from a dialectic view point with an analytic mind; everything goes behind the doors comes transparent. So, there's no need to be together with them behind the doors....
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Postby metecyp » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:05 am

Piratis wrote:Insan, what we ask for is Democracy and human rights

Piratis, many people are sick of hearing your convenience arguments of democracy and human rights, at least I know I am.
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Postby erolz » Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:27 am

magikthrill wrote:Hey, survival of the fittest. You can't fight the laws of evolution.


You do realise that such a 'philiosphy' of 'survival of the fittest' could be used to 'explain' why you have lost land and free access to live and buy property anywhere in Cyprus and why you will not get these things back until and unless you become 'fitter' than Turkey and TC?

Personaly I do not believe such a view and even if I did I would not present it here in such a way as I would not be able to see how it would be at all constructive in trying to promote better understanding between the two communites.
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Postby pantelis » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:27 am

This stupid conflict caused huge damage on TCs economical and social life. While GC community enjoying all the benefits of RoC, TCs have still been isolated.


Insan,
I you must be having another one of your, not so often mental break-downs, or you are full of shit again. Please do us a favor, go to the toilet and relieve yourself! :D

Now it's my turn:

Yes, dear Insan, the isolation, or retreat of the TCs forced them to pay a high price, socially and economically. This was only true for those TCs who chose to arm themselves and lock-up each other, in their enclaves. The rest of the TCs, who lived in the mixed villages and towns, their life was not different than their neighbors GCs. They were all poor farmers, struggling to make a living.

Then came the coup, the invasion and the exchange of population.
Please tell me Insan, who was better off, financially, on new year's day in 1975, or 1976, 1977, or 1978?
Who had all the citrus orchards they could ever dream of, exporting throughout Europe. How did your uncle Nadir become so rich?

If you want to blame anyone for your under-development, blame the same one the peasants of Anatolia should blame, for their own misery, because your are let by the same people, the same policies, the same mentality, since July 1974.
If nothing else, be happy that your average standard of living is much higher than that of the common Turk.
Why should you be better off than the common Turk? Do you consider yourself a higher being than the common Turk?

Do you know how many thousands of GC men left their families and their wives, their children, to go Libya, Saudi, Oman, Iraq, Qatar, Dubai etc, to work, in order rebuild, or to buy a piece of land, so they could have, again, their own home, so they could get their families out of the tents. At the same time these were going on, your relatives were looting, from GC house to GC house, or looking to move into a bigger better place, looking for another orchard that had fruit ready for the market, before someone got it. Now, many TC still hold more property that they could ever dream of, with enough to spare to sell for a poor Britt bargain looking bastard, since your price is right, much cheaper than Spain or France or the free part of Cyprus so he can enjoy your good fortune, also.

Remember what I said the other day. Development comes with openness and rule of law. Otherwise, you attract only crooks and cheap bastards. The ball has been court, since you grabbed in 1974, along with everything else. Holding it tight in your hands, it's not fun. The game is postponed.
Think about it, and come again Insan.
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Postby erolz » Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:41 am

pantelis wrote:
Now it's my turn:

Yes, dear Insan, the isolation, or retreat of the TCs forced them to pay a high price, socially and economically. This was only true for those TCs who chose to arm themselves and lock-up each other, in their enclaves. The rest of the TCs, who lived in the mixed villages and towns, their life was not different than their neighbors GCs. They were all poor farmers, struggling to make a living.


The idea that a group of TC chose to arm themselves and lock each other up into enclaves, without any good resons to do so (except presumably according to you as part of a long term plan to secure division of the Island) Is simply a gross distrotion of what actually happened in Cyprus back then. This kind of one side version of history is doing nothing but driving the two communites apart. Can you really not just stop it?

As a reminder here is an independent account (not TC and not GC) of this period from the web site many regard as the most non partisan source on the internet re the Cyprus conflict.

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Patrick-chp%203.htm (emphasis mine in the extracts)

Although the first inter-communal shooting incident occurred on 21 December 1963, the Greek-Cypriot plan to isolate the Turkish-Cypriot population centres was not implemented until widespread street fighting began in Nicosia on 23 December. Telephones were disconnected, and road blocks were erected around the main Turk-Cypriot villages and quarters. Outside of Nicosia, the Turkish-Cypriot community was completely bewildered by the course of events. Throughout the island, most Turk-Cypriots did not dare to venture out into their fields or on to the roads. Even so, some Turk-Cypriots moved to the security of larger Turkish-Cypriot centres and a refugee movement began to gather momentum. Government radio and television broadcasts, as well as Greek-Cypriot newspapers, portrayed the fighting as a Turkish-Cypriot revolt against the Republic, a revolt fomented to provide an excuse for Turkey to invade and impose partition. There is no doubt that this propaganda generated an intense Greek-Cypriot enmity against the Turk-Cypriot community, and encouraged a number of revenge murders throughout the island. Many Turk-Cypriot employees were turned out by their Greek-Cypriot employers; some left on their own initiative. However, most Turk- Cypriots simply found it too dangerous to attempt to go to work in Greek-Cypriot areas. As a result, the Cyprus police, the government and the civil service became de facto Greek-Cypriot organizations. Apart from the casualties caused by major fighting incidents in Nicosia, Larnaca, Mathlati, Ayios Vasilios and the Kyrenia Pass, an additional 33 Turk-Cypriots were killed, or are now presumed to have been killed, in scattered, unreported incidents throughout the island during December.


Greek-Cypriot irregulars attacked Turk-Cypriots in the mixed villages of Mathlati (23 December) and Ayios Vasilios (24 December).[8] On 12 January 1964, in the presence of foreign reporters, British Army Officers and Red Cross officials, a mass grave was exhumed at Ayios Vasilios. The grave contained the bodies of 21 Turkish-Cypriots who were presumed to have been killed in or near Ayios Vasilios on 24 December. The observers verified that a number of the victims appeared to have been tortured, and to have been shot after their hands and feet were tied.[9]


When the London Conference convened, the Greek-Cypriots insisted on abrogating the Zurich-London Agreements . They wanted a unitary form of Cypriot government which would be free to amend its own constitution. They agreed to incorporate some Turk-Cypriot minority rights into the constitution but insisted that such rights should not be guaranteed by threats of external intervention.


(sound familure - even today?)

On 9 and 10 February there had been sporadic firing in Limassol and serious fighting in the nearby villages of Asomatos and Episkom.[26] Cease-fires were arranged by British troops, but on 12 February Greek-Cypriot forces under government direction launched a deliberate attack on the Turkish-Cypriot quarter of Limassol .


Not quite the picture you paint then is it? To this independent accountig of events I must also add some of my own familys personal history. My uncle, not an extremist, not a member of TMT, not a desirer of partition or a thief with a longing to steal from GC, but an orindary Cypriot with a new young family to support, did not 'seal himself into an enclave' but continued to go to work in a GC controled area against the advice of the TC leadership at that time. He was taken from his place of work and murdered by GC. It is assumed that this attack was a response to the deaths of GC in famagusta (before anyone screams at me for not telling the 'whole truth'), yet he was nothing to do with these earlier deaths of GCs. All my uncle did was to try and continue living his life as normal despite the conflict raging around him and for this he was killed. How do you think his family reacted to this, his young wife with 3 children to support? Do you think they fled to TC enclaves out of some 'political master plan', some desire to create a partitioned TC state in Cyprus, or do you think they fled to enclaves and lived for many many years not only with the pain of a lost loved husband and father and under great hardship because of genuine fear? (more information about this event can be found here http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... &archive=1 more info about the event that led upto this can be found in the previous link given)

pantelis wrote: Then came the coup, the invasion and the exchange of population.
Please tell me Insan, who was better off, financially, on new year's day in 1975, or 1976, 1977, or 1978?


No one is denying the real hardships faced by GC after 74. However aid did pour into South Cyprus, making it at one point the most subsidised country in the world.

pantelis wrote:
If you want to blame anyone for your under-development, blame the same one the peasants of Anatolia should blame, for their own misery, because your are let by the same people, the same policies, the same mentality, since July 1974.
If nothing else, be happy that your average standard of living is much higher than that of the common Turk.
Why should you be better off than the common Turk? Do you consider yourself a higher being than the common Turk?


There are many reasons why after 74 the GC community managed to rebuild and create a stronger ecconomy than the TC community. However to deny that econnomic isolation of the TC community after 74 and the massive aid given to the GC community had nothig to do with this and that it was all down to 'incompetent policies' of 'ruling Turks' is no more a realistic interpretation of the past than you early 'history lesson' above.

pantelis wrote:
Do you know how many thousands of GC men left their families and their wives, their children, to go Libya, Saudi, Oman, Iraq, Qatar, Dubai etc, to work, in order rebuild, or to buy a piece of land, so they could have, again, their own home, so they could get their families out of the tents.


And do you know how many TC men left their families long before 74? My own father left in 1958. He left then because it was not a safe place for a young (and hot headed) TC to be. It was not a place that offered him any future. He later did all that he could to help his sister (who had lost her husband as above) and other memebers of his family who were suffering greatly in the period 63-74 with the economic wealth he and my mother obtained in England through sheer hard work.

pantelis wrote:
At the same time these were going on, your relatives were looting, from GC house to GC house, or looking to move into a bigger better place, looking for another orchard that had fruit ready for the market, before someone got it. Now, many TC still hold more property that they could ever dream of, with enough to spare to sell for a poor Britt bargain looking bastard, since your price is right, much cheaper than Spain or France or the free part of Cyprus so he can enjoy your good fortune, also.


No GC were 'looting' TC land and property years before 74? No TC (or mainland Turkish settler for that matter) struggled to build a viable 'nation' from scracth and without the massive aid that the south got, through the efforts of their own labours? No of course all the TC did after 74 was 'steal' and laze around in the sun - which is why their ecconomy did not do as well as the souths. Come on!

pantelis wrote:
Think about it, and come again Insan.


With respect Pantelis I suggest you think about the version of history you are 'peddeling' here and you yourself 'come again'. [/quote]
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