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Best Solution In 4 Steps

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Alexandros Lordos » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:08 am

Why do I get the feeling that we stray off-topic in nearly every thread? ...

We keep returning to the same stories, and I am wonderning how constructive this is ... shouldn't we be focusing here on the proposal that insan put forward, evaluating that in particular rather than going into an all-encompassing philosophical / historical analysis of the Cyprus Problem?

If I understand it correctly, insan is "proposing" here an agreed partition of Cyprus, with property exchanged so that TCs do not have more than their fair share. He proposes this because he doesn't believe TCs would be safe in a united Cyprus, even within the EU. Insan is not the only one: I have heard many people, both GC and TC express such a view. Does none of us have an opinion on the particular topic that insan raised?
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Postby erolz » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:36 am

Alexandros Lordos wrote: Why do I get the feeling that we stray off-topic in nearly every thread? ...


because we almost always do?

Alexandros Lordos wrote:
We keep returning to the same stories, and I am wonderning how constructive this is ... shouldn't we be focusing here on the proposal that insan put forward, evaluating that in particular rather than going into an all-encompassing philosophical / historical analysis of the Cyprus Problem?


It is not constructive in my opinion. However it is almost impossible not to 'react' to statements like the one Pantelis made about why TC were living in enclaves prior to 74. Where else can such 'one sided' versions of the past lead but to vociferous denials of their accuracy. Personaly I have tried in the past to ignore such posts, but the reality is I am not very good at it (ignoring such posts). If you present such one sided version of history you pretty much force these circular and damaging repetitions.

Alexandros Lordos wrote:If I understand it correctly, insan is "proposing" here an agreed partition of Cyprus, with property exchanged so that TCs do not have more than their fair share. He proposes this because he doesn't believe TCs would be safe in a united Cyprus, even within the EU. Insan is not the only one: I have heard many people, both GC and TC express such a view. Does none of us have an opinion on the particular topic that insan raised?


Personaly I believe if we are to be realistic such a solution must be considered. Personally I do not think that such spells the 'end' of any hope for a untied Cyprus ever, but does obviously does delay it.
You state that GC have expressed such views, yet my perception is that such a solution has _always_ been on the table from the TC side since 74, but has never been acceptable to the GC adminsitration and remains totaly unnaceptable to them today?
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Postby brother » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:06 pm

I HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR UNITY FOR YEARS BUT NOW I UNDERSTAND THAT ITS A PIPE DREAM SO I HOPE YOU VETO TURKEY TOMMORROW AND THAT TURKEY ANNEX'S CYPRUS, AT LEAST THERE WILL BE NO MORE UNCERTAINTY, YOU ON YOUR SIDE ME ON MINE END OF STORY. :shock:
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Postby magikthrill » Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:08 pm

LoL.

My friend, the day that TCs stop being illiterate and impoverished is the day Turkey annexes Cyprus.
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Postby brother » Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:17 pm

TC are not illeterate like you suggest but you can sit over there and dream of coming back to the north,will never happen, you got greedy and lost a big chunk.

I know why not try being greedy again i am sure turkey would like the south as well then you can all go to greece and cry for 30+ years 'my lands' .

But the gc have made crying into an art form, thats why tassos went on national television and sobbed like a baby, we laughed so much, it was pathetic and embaressing at the same time.
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Postby magikthrill » Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:54 pm

ok whatever man. i was just being mean to your ridiculous comments. My comments were directed to the Turkish settlers and not the TCs. And as long as you live in isolation they will be a part of the TC community.

Still though I'm not sure how not impoverished people who use the same windows and doors the previous owners 30 years ago had.
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Postby pantelis » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:18 am

Firs of all, I was responding to Insan's comments.

Erol, I know you and you know me very well, by now, we are both quite sensible, I want to believe.

The segments you are quoting were true only for a short period of time. In 1963, I was only 4 and I do not have first hand information. When I got older, I had regular contacts with TCs, ( at school, at work, at the villages of Pafos, when visiting my relatives). The atmosphere was friendly and normal. Like I was poor and they were also poor TCs, but there were also rich ones with lots of property and produce, that they sold the same markets their GCs neighbors did.

I have no idea how the TCs lived inside the enclaves and the closed villages. We were not allowed to enter them and they were armed.
Do you know if these TCs paid any taxes to RoC. No, they did not recognize the government, because they pulled out. I can accept that.
Did they pay their phone bills?
Did they pay their Electric bills?

I could accept the case that before 1974, there was discrimination against the TCs. Personally, I did not experience it, or I was not smart enough to understand it. After 1974, though, you cannot blame the GCs for their problems. The fact that they turned themselves into an extension of Anatolia and that the corrupted ways of the leadership and army in Turkey became a normal phenomenon in Cyprus, cannot be attributed to anything the GCs did. It was 1987, when the TCs finally started to wake up and begun complaining about their situation. What did the "wise" Denktash do to fool them one more time. He promised their own "state", so that they could take "control" of their life, have their own government. He remained the leader, naturally!
Who is the leader of the TCs today?
When the TCs started complaining again, Denktash said, "it's the GCs fault they imposed an embargo on us". What kind of an embargo are you talking about Erol? I have visited the north this summer. I did not see an embargo. The Kyrenia harbor tables were full of Britts. I saw the villas and the hotels. I saw the Israeli developments at Bogazi. The casinos and the bordelos are all over Kyrenia, I was told by my TC friends.
If there is embargo on the TCs, it is imposed by the regime that controls their life. They cannot use the beach below their house, because half it is reserved by the army officers' families and the other half for a private hotel, I was told. Instead they have to travel miles, by car, so they can enjoy the sea.
I have asked some questions, in my previous post. Did you or anyone else give me any answers?
How is your "government" supported right now? Do you pay any income or property taxes? How about the British and other foreigners, or the settlers, do they pay taxes?

Also, Erol, you keep repeating that massive foreign aid came to the TCs after 1974. Do you have any sources, documenting what came and when. Personally, I did not see it, or felt it. My father worked for 17 years in Libya, so I could go to school and have a place to live in, that's all I know.

Brother-gardash, Papa did not use the veto, as I predicted in earlier posts. He is not stupid. We want you and the Turks in Anatolia, to live a descent life, the same life as any other European enjoys. The less your life depends on the decisions of the politicians, the better the life you enjoy.

Once we are all in the EU, with equal rights and responsibilities, we will discover how much more united we should be with each other, than with any other Western European, if your leaders allow you to realize this reality.
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Postby erolz » Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:56 am

pantelis wrote: The segments you are quoting were true only for a short period of time.


I quote those segments as a response to your earlier claim

the isolation, or retreat of the TCs forced them to pay a high price, socially and economically. This was only true for those TCs who chose to arm themselves and lock-up each other, in their enclaves.


The effects of loosing a loved one are true indefinately, though the act may have happen in a second.

pantelis wrote:
Did they pay their phone bills?
Did they pay their Electric bills?


They had their electric and phones cut off, not because of non payment but as an attempt to force them to 'give up'.

pantelis wrote:I could accept the case that before 1974, there was discrimination against the TCs.


It was not just a case of discrimination. Before 74 there was a planned and concerted effort by the GC (adminstration and 'irregular' powers) to force the TC community to give up the rights (as a community) they had won in 1960 agreements. This concerted effort used legal and illegal means to achieve it's aim, in a written down planed framework that included how to convince the rest of the world that what was really happeing was not happening. This is very different from 'discrimination' against TC and much more serious (and sinister).

pantelis wrote:After 1974, though, you cannot blame the GCs for their problems.


I was not blaming the GC for the state of the TC ecconomy post 74. I was countering your claim that the (only) cause for the difference between the TC ecconomy and the GC ecconomy post 74 was down to 'the corrupt leadership of Turkey and Turkish army'

pantelis wrote:What kind of an embargo are you talking about Erol?


I am talking about the very real embargoes that exists to this day. We can not for example export to the EU (though we can of course still buy from the EU - just not sell). We can not have flights direct to and from the North. It costs me about £250.00 to fly return from here to UK (and about £300 the other way round). This cost is directly related to the 'emargoes'. The idea that the very real embargoes on trade and direct travel have not affected the TC ecconomy post 74 is just nonsense (imo and with respect).

pantelis wrote:I have visited the north this summer. I did not see an embargo.


Well obviously if you did not 'see' an embargo then there could not have been one?

pantelis wrote:The Kyrenia harbor tables were full of Britts. I saw the villas and the hotels. I saw the Israeli developments at Bogazi. The casinos and the bordelos are all over Kyrenia, I was told by my TC friends.


and if we had direct flights to the north do you really doubt that thee would have been more tourism, more investment , more trade in the north? Or that with this extra tourism etc the ecconomy of the north would not have been much close to that of the south than it is today?

Oh and can we stop this 'bordelos' nonsense? We have prostituies here. You have prostitues there. There are prostituies everywhere.

pantelis wrote:If there is embargo on the TCs, it is imposed by the regime that controls their life.


That is just a total distortion of the meaning of embargo. By definition an embargo is something that an 'outside' agency imposes on you. If it is imposed by you yourself it is not an embargo.

pantelis wrote:They cannot use the beach below their house, because half it is reserved by the army officers' families and the other half for a private hotel, I was told. Instead they have to travel miles, by car, so they can enjoy the sea.
I have asked some questions, in my previous post. Did you or anyone else give me any answers?


You can use any beach you like. If you use a hotels beach facilites then the hotel can charge you for this. If you do not then they can not restrict your access to the beach.

Do you not have 'reserved areas' in the south? Military bases? My trip to the top of the Troodos was 'spolit' by the huges listening bases on the top of the mountain.

pantelis wrote:How is your "government" supported right now? Do you pay any income or property taxes?


and if I start to ask you about your personal fincances and what taxes you pay would you be as willing to be as open as I am going to be. In reality it is none of your business what I pay or do not pay, but I will choose to answer you none the less.

My income is based on property in the UK and as such is liable to UK tax. I pay the equivalence of 'rates' on my property here.

pantelis wrote:How about the British and other foreigners, or the settlers, do they pay taxes?


How and where foreigniers pay taxes is dependent on where the taxable income is dervied from. In simple terms if those foreginers earn income from activites in North Cyprus they are liable for taxes in North Cyprus. Do they pay them? How would I know I am neither a tax collector nor do I go around asking people if they pay their taxes. It is no deifferent foe the settlers as I understand it.

pantelis wrote:Also, Erol, you keep repeating that massive foreign aid came to the TCs after 1974. Do you have any sources, documenting what came and when.


There are many sources available if you care to look. Here is just one for you

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/wollacot ... omment.htm

On this, that the economic recovery of Greek Cyprus was aided considerably by the Western powers, British journalist Martin Woollacott points out in his incisive article "Cyprus: Dealing for Dollars":

Greek Cyprus must rank as one of the most subsidized nations in the world. With a population of only half a million people, it receives something like $54 million annually in grant aid from the United States, Greece, the United Nations, Britain, Germany and other countries, as well as an average $12 million a year in soft loans. In addition, it benefits massively from the UN military presence - - costs estimated at $29 million a year, of which Canada pays a hefty share -- and from the British bases. Foreign aid and loans approach a fifth of all government revenues, and the over-all contribution to the economy, including the military spending, may be of the same order. This provides a solid, if rarely acknowledged, base for the dynamic Greek Cypriot economy. But since much of the money directly derives from the division of the island, it also creates, as one diplomat put it, 'a vested interest in keeping things as they are'. The booming Greek Cypriot economy, partly fueled by such foreign injections, gives the Greek Cypriots no economic incentive for a settlement and tends to reinforce those hard-liners who prefer the strategy of the long struggle', which is really a strategy for the economic defeat of the Turkish

Maclean's Magazine, June 25, 1979, p. 29.


Here are a couple more references for you
http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/economic ... 20kyle.htm
http://www.country-studies.com/cyprus/the-economy.html

Personally, I did not see it, or felt it. My father worked for 17 years in Libya, so I could go to school and have a place to live in, that's all I know.


Well it was certainly arriving in the hands of your government. Perhaps the fact that it was pouring into their hands and yet you were seeeing none of it as a citizen says something about how 'corrupt' you leadership may have been ?
[/quote]
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Postby insan » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:19 am

Pantelis,


While all the things had been happnening you told us in your above posts; Makarios had stated that if only TC leadership would accept minority rights, he would negotiate with them. Moreover; on the other hand, he was participating on extermination plan(Akritas) of TCs...Furthermore, if you read the 1965 report of Galo Plaza; it was Greek armed forces who was provoking some group of TCs to arm and take their guards in anclaves...


What would you expect from TC leadership to do under those conditions? Could you expect them to accept the minority rights and Enosis? But being against Enosis and fighting, struggling against Enosists don't make them sublime men. They made many mistakes both in 1962-74 period and afterwards; even currently still making the same mistakes. In some of my previously posted messages, I've mentioned what their mistakes were, so I'll not repeat them one more time... Their big and unforgiveable mistakes caused huge damage on TCs honourable, just struggle against Hellen's ruling elites...





So stop telling us the same "innocent" stories and face with the realities...
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:30 pm

brother wrote: But the gc have made crying into an art form, thats why tassos went on national television and sobbed like a baby, we laughed so much, it was pathetic and embaressing at the same time.


Denktash didn't cry like a baby for the leaving of the Turkish Army?

Pantelis wrote: My father worked for 17 years in Libya, so I could go to school and have a place to live in, that's all I know.


Mine too for 10 years and myself for 3. Do you know what life in prison is? What did I do to deserve this? While the only job some princes were doing was the looting and living on our stolen lands and properties and celebrating their rosy "peace operation" imish.

Erol wrote: They had their electric and phones cut off, not because of non payment but as an attempt to force them to 'give up'.


Erol can you tell me where from you were getting free Electricity and free water supply in the occupied areas for long long years after 1974 until the regime builted it's own power station.? Isn’t it from the stupid GCs as always? Do you know that the Electricity authority was charging us almost double the electricity we were using to cover for your "expenses".

Erol wrote: to force the TC community to give up the rights (as a community) they had won in 1960 agreements.


Have won?! How? Use the right words Erol. Granted, donated, gifted, (all these are the right words) ALL on the expense of the dirty GC dogs who dared fight against her Majesty for their freedom. I would really be ashamed if I were you to say "I won those rights". By the way do you know that the vast majority of the TCs are not ashamed to repeat it all the time and to excpect even more rights today?

Erol wrote: I am talking about the very real embargoes that exists to this day. We can not for example export to the EU

What you call embargo is what you impose on youselves by using properties that don't belong to you, and by wanting to export the produce of orchards that don't belong to you. You want direct flights to get recognition of the pseudostate, and whatever illegality and stealing goes together with it.
Get real my dear. You cannot even export to Turkey because you know damn well their brotherhood ends just there were the customs of Mersina start..... Stealing leads to isolation, and isolation has a price.

Erol wrote: Well obviously if you did not 'see' an embargo then there could not have been one?


Have you seen the effects of a real embargo yourself? if not I suggest you have a look at the embargo on medicines and everyday supplies to Iraq.

Erol wrote: If it is imposed by you on yourself it is not an embargo.


Exactly!!! That's what I was trying to tell you. Glad you got it.
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