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Borders may be closed in Cyprus

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Kifeas » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:47 pm

paaul12 wrote:
I do not know any country in the world in which it is not illegal for anyone to trade, develop, exploit or usurp property without the consent of its lawful owner;



Then you do not know about The Karelian question, when will this land be returned to its former owners?

The Karelian question arose when Finland was forced to cede territories to the Soviet Union after the Winter War in the Moscow peace treaty in 1940.


Thanks god Cyprus was never forced with any treaty to cede territories to Turkey or any other country, like the case you described; therefore I do not think your example is comparable with our case. Furthermore, the above occurred before the foundation of the UN organisation and the drafting of the UN charter, and before the establishment of the Council of Europe and the drafting of human rights protocols, all of which Turkey is a co-signer but which it chooses to violate.
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Postby bg_turk » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:09 am

Kifeas wrote:
Whoever said that should look no further than Greece, the country that illegally stole and still refuses to return the properties of Chams.


I have never come across or ever heard of any ECtHR decision condemning Greece for violating the property (human) rights of the “Chams” all these years, therefore I doubt the validity and truthfulness of your allegations.[/quote]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4397470.stm
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Postby Piratis » Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:21 am

Thanks god Cyprus was never forced with any treaty to cede territories to Turkey or any other country, like the case you described


They tried with the Annan plan. They got their answer.
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Postby paaul12 » Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:33 pm

Thanks 4 the link bg-turk

A case of the pot calling the kettle black i think:

The demonstrators, carrying banners reading "We want justice" and "Stop the indifference", were demanding compensation for or restitution of properties confiscated by the Greek government.
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Postby alexISS » Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:52 pm

paaul12 wrote:Thanks 4 the link bg-turk

A case of the pot calling the kettle black i think:

The demonstrators, carrying banners reading "We want justice" and "Stop the indifference", were demanding compensation for or restitution of properties confiscated by the Greek government.


Think again. First of all, not all Chams were expelled, just the minority that collaborated with the axis during the nazi occupation of Greece, the ones who pushed for the annexation of the Thesprotia region by Albania. Removing their Greek citizenship was perfectly justified and there is absolutely no open issue regarding those Chams in any court or the UN
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Postby pantheman » Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:32 pm

The answer is simple and staring you all in the face, close the borders. Nothing would make me happier. Let the illegal half stay as it is for another 5 millions years.

Seems they like to threaten the GC each time they don't get what they want. Just keep remembering, it is the illegal turkish accupation that is in the wrong here NOT the RoC.

And as for theresa, you will get whats coming to you. You want to live and work in anillegal state, not sure about your property, huh pull the other one.

The TRNC (god i can't even bring myself to say it never mind write it), is an illegal state, being held by force, under the protection of the UK and USA governments because they want to get into bed with Turkey, its as simple as that.
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Postby bg_turk » Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:58 pm

alexISS wrote:Think again. First of all, not all Chams were expelled, just the minority that collaborated with the axis during the nazi occupation of Greece, the ones who pushed for the annexation of the Thesprotia region by Albania. Removing their Greek citizenship was perfectly justified and there is absolutely no open issue regarding those Chams in any court or the UN


1. In 1944 the Chams were evicted from Northern Greece by guerilla forces under the command of Gen. Zervas acting under the instructions of Allied officers... It was unfortunately true however that the eviction was carried out in an extremely bloody manner, and in the form of a reprisal...
In March 1945 units of Zervas’ dissolved forces, under a certain officer called Zotos, carried out a ruthless massacre of the Chams in the Philiates area, and practically cleared the area of Albanian(Cham) minority.1)
2. Colonel Chriss Monague Woodhouse, head of the British Military Mission in Greece reported as follows in October 1945:
"Encouraged by the Allied Mission I headed, Zervas drove the Chams out of their homes in 1944. The majority fled to find shelter in Albania... Their eviction from Greece was carried out with large scale bloodshed. Zervas work was followed with a big scale massacre that cannot be excused among the Philiates Chams in march 1945... The result was eviction of the undesirable Albanian population from their own native land"2)
3. In June 1946, Joseph Jacobs, Head of the U.S. Mission in Albania (1945—1946), writes in his report:
"According to all information 1 have been able together on the Chams issue, in autumn 1944 and during the first months of 1945, the authorities in north—western Greece perpetrated savage brutality by evicting 25.000 Chatns, residents of Chameria, from their homes, where they had been living for centuries on end, chasing them across the border after having robbed them of their land and property. Most of the young people were killed because the majority of the refugees were old folk, and children")

http://www.aacl.com/cam17.html


Greece, however, has consistently dismissed the Chams question. Following a Chams rally in Tirana last year, a Greek Foreign Ministry official said: "There is no Cham issue, and certain parties want to contribute to the destabilization of the region by raising such nonexistent issues. Such matters have been dealt with by history."

Furthermore, a law on the registration of assets passed in 1998 has left Chams with no legal way to reclaim seized property other than through a lengthy and expensive court procedure.

But Albanian authorities refuse to let the matter rest. Republican parliamentary Deputy Sabri Godo is the country's most outspoken politician on the Chams issue. He says the issue is sufficiently important to take to an international court should the two countries fail to resolve it on a bilateral level:

"I am of the opinion that the Albanian government, the Albanian parliament, should insist on opening discussions in the proper time and manner. We are not conditioning Greece for further development of relations. If the Greeks are going to categorically refuse to confront this very real problem, then the assistance of a third party might be required."

http://www.rferl.org/features/2002/09/1 ... 180204.asp
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Postby alexISS » Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:27 pm

bg_turk wrote:
alexISS wrote:Think again. First of all, not all Chams were expelled, just the minority that collaborated with the axis during the nazi occupation of Greece, the ones who pushed for the annexation of the Thesprotia region by Albania. Removing their Greek citizenship was perfectly justified and there is absolutely no open issue regarding those Chams in any court or the UN


1. In 1944 the Chams were evicted from Northern Greece by guerilla forces under the command of Gen. Zervas acting under the instructions of Allied officers... It was unfortunately true however that the eviction was carried out in an extremely bloody manner, and in the form of a reprisal...
In March 1945 units of Zervas’ dissolved forces, under a certain officer called Zotos, carried out a ruthless massacre of the Chams in the Philiates area, and practically cleared the area of Albanian(Cham) minority.1)
2. Colonel Chriss Monague Woodhouse, head of the British Military Mission in Greece reported as follows in October 1945:
"Encouraged by the Allied Mission I headed, Zervas drove the Chams out of their homes in 1944. The majority fled to find shelter in Albania... Their eviction from Greece was carried out with large scale bloodshed. Zervas work was followed with a big scale massacre that cannot be excused among the Philiates Chams in march 1945... The result was eviction of the undesirable Albanian population from their own native land"2)
3. In June 1946, Joseph Jacobs, Head of the U.S. Mission in Albania (1945—1946), writes in his report:
"According to all information 1 have been able together on the Chams issue, in autumn 1944 and during the first months of 1945, the authorities in north—western Greece perpetrated savage brutality by evicting 25.000 Chatns, residents of Chameria, from their homes, where they had been living for centuries on end, chasing them across the border after having robbed them of their land and property. Most of the young people were killed because the majority of the refugees were old folk, and children")

http://www.aacl.com/cam17.html


Greece, however, has consistently dismissed the Chams question. Following a Chams rally in Tirana last year, a Greek Foreign Ministry official said: "There is no Cham issue, and certain parties want to contribute to the destabilization of the region by raising such nonexistent issues. Such matters have been dealt with by history."

Furthermore, a law on the registration of assets passed in 1998 has left Chams with no legal way to reclaim seized property other than through a lengthy and expensive court procedure.

But Albanian authorities refuse to let the matter rest. Republican parliamentary Deputy Sabri Godo is the country's most outspoken politician on the Chams issue. He says the issue is sufficiently important to take to an international court should the two countries fail to resolve it on a bilateral level:

"I am of the opinion that the Albanian government, the Albanian parliament, should insist on opening discussions in the proper time and manner. We are not conditioning Greece for further development of relations. If the Greeks are going to categorically refuse to confront this very real problem, then the assistance of a third party might be required."

http://www.rferl.org/features/2002/09/1 ... 180204.asp


Is your reply supposed to invalidate my post? Because it does not. The first article is posted in an Albanian site and the second is written by two Albanians. Is this "Cham issue" a matter that international organizations are concerned with? No, because it's a non-issue. Unlike the occupation of Northern Cyprus which you try to distract people from. You obviously tried to dig up articles from more "official" websites but that was the best you could do
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Postby miltiades » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:14 am

Who the hell is this ""Chum Issue ""No one has ever heard of it !!!! And no one wants to know either .
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Postby bg_turk » Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:19 am

They are called the Chams - they are the indigenous people of Chameria who were unjustly expelled from their ancestral land.
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