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annan plan 3 on the table?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby boulio » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:43 pm

like here is a independent source that speaks about the eoka and other figures of the dark days of cyprus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA
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Postby erolz » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:50 pm

boulio wrote:like here is a independent source that speaks about the eoka and other figures of the dark days of cyprus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EOKA


Just for info the wikipedia is not independent.

It allows anyone to edit the pages, in the hope that over time it will evolve into a useful resource. I could go on and post a totaly different version to the section on eoka, and then you could come and post another and we could carry on like that indefinately. Thats the way wikis work. For a look at the full history of this article try here

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... on=history

and here is an earlier version

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... id=2925611

PS i do not think the current entry is particulalry bad, just that its not really acurate to talk of wikipedia articles as being independent. They are not. That does not mean they have no value of course. I personaly like the idea of wikis in general and wikipeida in particular.

It is only as independent as the views of the poster.
Last edited by erolz on Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby boulio » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:53 pm

bump
Last edited by boulio on Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby erolz » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:55 pm

boulio wrote:i can of use however as it seems in doing research on certain things its highly accurate


Sure like I say in my edit, I think that the wikipedia is a good idea and useful resource. It's just one / you should understand what it is (and what it isnt) to make the most of the information it contains.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:20 pm

Alexandre,

I never read Simerini. I only read Politis. Anyway how do you see things moving?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:26 pm

MicAtCyp wrote:Alexandre,

I never read Simerini. I only read Politis. Anyway how do you see things moving?


I think that, after 17th December, the EU and America became aware once more of how much the Cyprus Problem can stand as an obstacle to Turkey's EU accession - and this will motivate many people to "do something about it" very fast ...

I suspect that the US and UK will at first try to force the Greek Cypriots into accepting a repetition of last year's proceedings (i.e. short round of negotiations to satisfy minimum GC demands, and then Annan to fill in the gaps). When Tassos refuses, they will try to force / blackmail him into a compromise by threatening with direct trade, recognition and all the rest. Eventually I suspect they will reach some sort of compromise with him, leading to negotiations that are neither totally open-ended, nor hemmed in by Annan acting as referee. As for the EU, it will almost certainly get highly involved in the economic aspect of the solution, but will try to avoid like the plague any involvement in the political aspects of the solution.

As for the outcome, I am not highly optimistic ... I suspect that Turkey will refuse to make the minimum compromises that Greek Cypriots will demand, leading to a breakdown in negotiations. Though Turkish thinking regarding Cyprus has been changing, there is still a lot of momentum in the old thinking ("The problem was solved in 1974"), and more time will be needed before Greek Cypriots and Turkey can see eye-to-eye ...

Having said that, I am almost certain that - barring a world shattering event such as a world war - the Cyprus problem will be solved before Turkey joins the EU. Deep down, everyone knows now that this is the real deadline - not October 3rd - so negotiations about Cyprus will be taking place over the next few years at a leisurely and non-committal, on - off pace, culminating in a new UN Plan just a couple of years before Turkey's EU accession.

Anyhow, this is my prediction. Please bear in mind though that my record so far as a prophet is terrible - almost none of my predictions have ever come true. :D
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Postby erolz » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:34 am

Alexandros Lordos wrote: Anyhow, this is my prediction. Please bear in mind though that my record so far as a prophet is terrible - almost none of my predictions have ever come true. :D


Is that a prediction then (that your predictions are going to be wrong) ? :)

Bit of a classic Greek philosphical conundrum there :) Like the creatan that tells you all creatians are liers.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:56 am

erolz wrote:
Alexandros Lordos wrote: Anyhow, this is my prediction. Please bear in mind though that my record so far as a prophet is terrible - almost none of my predictions have ever come true. :D


Is that a prediction then (that your predictions are going to be wrong) ? :)

Bit of a classic Greek philosphical conundrum there :) Like the creatan that tells you all creatians are liers.


... (no comment) ...

Oh, by the way, I live in Crete nowadays ... :D
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Postby Bananiot » Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:37 pm

The best account on Papadopoulos is given by the late Andreas Ziartides, the father of ther trade union movement in Cyprus, respected by both, Greek and Turkish Cypriots. Ziartides was a moderate politician who was always open to new ideas and for this he was scorned by the stalinists of AKEL, despite being the secretary General of PEO, the Akelite Trade Union. His book has not been translated into english yet, so I will give you a few exerpts as they appear on pages 100-102.

Papadopoulos, he says, was an enosis bigot, an extreme right winger. When he was given the Labour Ministry in the first cabinet, we were terrified. However, he did not go against the left wing labour movement but he showed a lot of respect for our views in general. As a politician, I detected, Ziartides says, that Papadopoulos could study in depth the issues, analyse them and even accept ideas of adversaries. This is his positive side. He has however, one negative stigma on his character which prevented him to serve his country properly at certain given times. He is a sick turgo-hater (μισότουρκος in greek). He is a sick racist, as far as the Turks are concerned. He could not even hear of minimal compromises and when he was appointed the negotiator for the GC side I said to my associates that we could not have appointed a worse man for this job. With him, we could never expect to find an agreed solution to the Cyprus issue. I recognise and applaude his honesty but I also see the disadvantages I mentioned before. Now Papadopoulos is in the Democratic Party. There was a time when he was a fierce critic of this party. Since Kyprianou turned to outright rejectionism he now stands by the side of Kyprianou. He was always a friend of Klerides but now he does not want to know about Klerides because the latter is following a pragmatic and realistic stance regarding the finding of a compromise with the TC's.

These are the views of Ziartides on Papadopoulos. They were expressed at around 1998, if I remember correctly. Regarding his participation in EOKA B, I do not think he was a member. He supported Makarios but it is sure he had many admirers in EOKA B due to his enosis bigotry. When the coup broke out he was arrested, but was soon released on the intervention of Kikis Constantinides, the Famagusta area EOKA B chief.
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Postby brother » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:44 pm

Thanks for that bananiot, it was very interesting reading and i hope that book is translated soon, sounds well worth reading.
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