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POLITICAL EQUALITY FOR ALL

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby -mikkie2- » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:59 pm

Of course such 'inequlity' is not a problem or at all 'un democratic' in the USA for example (putting piratis' argument forward as I understand it) because anyone can move to any state


In the US the power of each state is judged by the number of electoral college votes. California for example has many more votes than the state of Utah which has a fraction of the population of California.

The proposal for Cyprus is a 50:50 power share at the federal government level even though there is a 4:1 ratio in population.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:22 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:
In the US the power of each state is judged by the number of electoral college votes. California for example has many more votes than the state of Utah which has a fraction of the population of California.

The proposal for Cyprus is a 50:50 power share at the federal government level even though there is a 4:1 ratio in population.


Mikkie2, I am not exactly sure what you are referring to: Are you talking about the Presidential Election System in the US, or about the US legislature? If it is the legislature, we have already established that it is partly based on equality of states (2 senators per state) and partly on proportional representation (the congress). Now, if what you are referring to is the Presidential Election System, then we are comparing two totally different things. The proposal for Cyprus was not so much for a presidential system as for a parliamentary system, in which the executive branch is elected by parliament rather than the people directly.

In the case of the presidential council, (which would be composed 2/3 GCs and 1/3 TCs), the selected group would have to be approved both by the Lower House (which is 75% GC and 25% TC) and by the Senate (which is 50% GC and 50% TC).

So then, what do we call the above: A 50-50 power share, a 75-25 power share, or a 2/3 - 1/3 power share? :)
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Postby magikthrill » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:32 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:So then, what do we call the above: A 50-50 power share, a 75-25 power share, or a 2/3 - 1/3 power share? :)


well that would depend on whether there is any veto power invovled and on what level it is involved. cause if there is, then the lower house and presidential council are nothing but useless entities that fool the indigenous GCs in thinking they have more of a saying in what goes on.
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Postby insan » Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:43 pm

"Majoritarian federalism, of whatever internal territorial configuration, will not be enough to sustain stability."

"A stable federation requires (at least some) consociational rather than majoritarian institutions if it is to survive."

"Not all consociational experiments prove successful, as the cases of Cyprus and Northern Ireland indicate, but some of them have been."

"An even more depressing conclusion is that consociationalism may only be practicable in moderately rather than deeply divided societies ".


"Even relatively successful multi-ethnic federations appear to be in permanent constitutional crises. Not only do the division of powers need to be constantly renegotiated as a result of technological advances, economic transformations and judicial interventions, but supplemental consociational practices are often required at the federal and sub-central levels of government to maintain stability. "




I'm emphasizing one more time that the only genuine reunification is possible with a model of political structure I put forward in this thread. I believe that it would not only provide the durability and stability of the federation; it would also provide a rapid integration of two communities that it might have led us to a single nation unitary state with no ethnic restrictions and divisions... but unfortunately, I haven't seen a serious attempt from anyone to discuss the model of political structure I put forward... :roll:
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Postby pantelis » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:33 pm

"Alliance" or "Clash" of civilizations?
El Pais Spain | JOSEP BORRELL

The European Council decided earlier this month to begin talks with Turkey on membership of the European Union. Prior to this, the European Parliament had voted in favor by 407 to 262 (with 29 abstentions) on admitting Turkey. We are witnessing a historic moment. Sitting between Europe and Asia, and at the crossroads of history, Turkey is not just any candidate: its future incorporation, or not, into the EU will impact either on the so-called clash of civilizations that some insist on provoking, or on the alliance of civilizations that many of us desire as the guarantee of shared peace and progress.

The Turkish question has divided Europeans as they seek to understand the geographic, historical, and political boundaries of Europe. For many years, we have avoided the issue. The existence of the Soviet Bloc provided the answer: the Iron Curtain imposed our frontiers. Its disappearance has forced us to look at the aims and ambitions of an EU that some would like to see reduced in size.

In search of an answer to these questions, Turkey has found itself at the center of a passionate debate in which the European Parliament has much to say. And in the long-run, its agreement will be essential if Turkey is to be admitted. Europe's citizens must know this. During my recent visit to Turkey, which took me to Istanbul and Diyarbakir, I have seen first-hand how important it is to fight against our mutual stereotypes, caricatures and historic misunderstandings. Some here fear a Turkish invasion - not in the historic sense, but simply as a result of demographics. Meanwhile, in Turkey, the mere mention of Cyprus and Kurdistan in some sectors is enough to provoke anger, passion and controversy.

During my visit I had the opportunity to see just how deeply Turkish society is involved in the process. All the people I have spoken to - whether in politics, business, human rights, trades unions or Islam - share the country's European vocation.

It is also true that some parts of society reject membership of the EU. But it is Turkey's more progressive politicians who are the most enthusiastic supporters of entry: they know that without these talks, the reform process will flounder or even come to a halt. The Kurdish community in particular sees membership as the best opportunity to end the violence, and to win recognition of their identity.

In any event, we should all be aware that beginning talks is but the first step in a long process, which will not necessarily lead to membership. Furthermore, the European Parliament believes that certain conditions should be applied to the negotiation process. Serious violations of civil and human rights could prompt suspension of talks.

It is important to remember that for the last five years, Turkey has been implementing major reforms, although there is still much to be done - much more than Turkey realizes. It is hardly worth pointing out that the talks between my own country, Spain, lasted 11 years, while Poland only joined 15 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Despite the approval of the entire council on initiating talks, the Turkish question has sparked hostility among some member-states. Most of these arguments are based on the fact that the country is overwhelmingly Muslim. But it should be remembered that the modern Turkish state was founded as a lay state, and remains to this day the best example of how democracy and Islam are compatible.

This is why, whatever the outcome of the process that is about to begin, we have to make clear that the EU will not be redefining its borders on the basis of a "clash of civilizations," and that there are no religious frontiers involved. Europe is not, and should never be, a Christian Club. Neither should Turkey be rejected because its population is largely Muslim. Our idea of Europe is that of a union based on universal values such as democracy, the rule of law, and respect for human rights, as well as fundamental freedoms.
In this context, it is vital to assess the conditions required for Turkey's admission to the EU. Turkey's membership raises the question as to what we want for Europe. Above all, the entry of Turkey should not come at the cost of the EU ceding its role as a key international player; on the contrary, it should reinforce this role. Some regard this as impossible: the entry of Turkey into the EU would effectively be a contradiction in terms, and would spell the end of the organization's ability to influence international events. Others argue that Turkey's membership is vital if Europe is to play a leading role in the world via its relationship with an Islamic country, and develop a policy that is radically different, say, to that of Washington's in the Middle East.

On the other hand, the issue remains of Turkey's vast size, its population, and the chronic poverty of its rural areas. Before the long process of talks begins, a democratic debate is needed. Yet Turkey should be a priority for the European Parliament, because relations with the Islamic world will be the main issue affecting the future of Europe.


http://www.elpais.es
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Postby pantelis » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:44 pm

Feinstein Will Move to Abolish Electoral College
From Robert Longley,Your Guide to U.S. Gov Info / Resources.

Amendment would provide for direct popular election
Dateline: December 27, 2004
Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-California) has announced that she will introduce legislation to abolish the Electoral College system and provide for direct popular election of the President and Vice President when the Senate convenes for the 109th Congress in January.

“The Electoral College is an anachronism and the time has come to bring our democracy into the 21st Century,” Sen. Feinstein said in a press release. “During the founding years of the Republic, the Electoral College may have been a suitable system, but today it is flawed and amounts to national elections being decided in several battleground states.

“We need to have a serious, comprehensive debate on reforming the Electoral College. I will press for hearings in the Judiciary Committee on which I sit and ultimately a vote on the Senate floor, as occurred 25 years ago on this subject. My goal is simply to allow the popular will of the American people to be expressed every four years when we elect our President. Right now, that is not happening.”

In further denouncing the Electoral College system, Sen. Feinstein pointed out that under the current system for electing the President of the United States:


Candidates focus only on a handful of contested states and ignore the concerns of tens of millions of Americans living in other states.

A candidate can lose in 39 states, but still win the Presidency.

A candidate can lose the popular vote by more than 10 million votes, but still win the Presidency.

A candidate can win 20 million votes in the general election, but win zero electoral votes, as happened to Ross Perot in 1992.

In most states, the candidate who wins a state’s election, wins all of that state’s electoral votes, no matter the winning margin, which can disenfranchise those who supported the losing candidate.

A candidate can win a state’s vote, but an elector can refuse to represent the will of a majority of the voters in that state by voting arbitrarily for the losing candidate (this has reportedly happened 9 times since 1820).

Smaller states have a disproportionate advantage over larger states because of the two “constant” or “senatorial” electors assigned to each state.

A tie in the Electoral College is decided by a single vote from each state’s delegation in the House of Representatives, which would unfairly grant California’s 36 million residents equal status with Wyoming’s 500,000 residents.
In case of such a tie, House members are not bound to support the candidate who won their state’s election, which has the potential to further distort the will of the majority.
“Sooner or later we will have a situation where there is a great disparity between the electoral vote winner and the popular vote winner. If the President and Vice President are elected by a direct popular vote of the American people, then every American’s vote will count the same regardless of whether they live in California, Maine, Ohio or Florida,” Sen. Feinstein said.

In the history of the country, there have been four instances of disputed elections where the President who was elected won the electoral vote, but lost the popular vote – John Quincy Adams in 1824, Rutherford B. Hayes in 1876, Benjamin Harrison in 1888 and George W. Bush in 2000. According to some estimates there have been at least 22 instances where a similar scenario could have occurred in close elections.

“Our system is not undemocratic, but it is imperfect, and we have the power to do something about it,” Sen. Feinstein said. “It is no small feat to amend the Constitution as it has only been done only 27 times in the history of our great nation.”
See: Process of Amending the Constitution
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Postby insan » Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:36 pm

Ahh.. ahhh... Some people have been living in the flats, dreaming themselves as if they have been living in palaces and wishing to live a life of a King. Only when they woke up, they realized that they were living in the flats and not the palaces. Due time, those people have learnt that the circumstances they have been in, shapes their life. Thenceforth, they worked for creating the suitable circumstances to make their dream come true for a life like the kings lead...


It's up to you... Either keep dreaming or wake up to see the realities and find out what feasible for your circumstances to be realized in a step by step order...
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Postby insan » Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:43 pm

And as much as some people exert to find out the feasible under the circumstances they have been in; some people ignore the circumstances and force them to the direction of two seperate states...


These are the "wisest" men I've ever seen...
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Postby pantelis » Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:46 pm

Be Insan,
I have no problem with what you are proposing, I have said to you many time, you are reasonable, you have to take your proposal from Instabul to Ankara now. Can you do that?
The Annan plan is nowhwere near to what you propose. Does this mean that you also reject the Annan plan?

To ask that life in Cyprus should meet the European standards, to be based on universal values such as democracy, the rule of law, respect for human rights, as well as fundamental freedoms, is not too much to ask for and shouldn't be a dream of living "in palaces".
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Postby insan » Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:43 pm

Be Insan,
I have no problem with what you are proposing, I have said to you many time, you are reasonable,you have to take your proposal from Instabul to Ankara now. Can you do that?


Re Panteli, most probably Ankara and both side of Nicosia should have an eye and ear over here but anyhow I can e-mail them this model of political structure which I based it upon the idea "political equality for all".

The Annan plan is nowhwere near to what you propose. Does this mean that you also reject the Annan plan?


I don't reject the whole plan but some parts of the plan seriously need ammendments and improvements.

To ask that life in Cyprus should meet the European standards, to be based on universal values such as democracy, the rule of law, respect for human rights, as well as fundamental freedoms, is not too much to ask for and shouldn't be a dream of living "in palaces".


I just wanted to stress out that we should design our reunification plan by considering the circumstances we have been in and we should give it a start from the first and most appropriate feasible point...
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