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Use NATO

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Use NATO

Postby kerravon » Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:03 am

First of all you need to recognize that both GC and TC are classified as "free" territories, if you go here:

http://www.mutazilah.org/map2004.pdf

Free people can unite in any way they want, as the EU demonstrates. EU countries have virtually identical laws - your human rights are respected wherever you go. There's no political barrier to reunification of GC and TC. NATO is another umbrella organization where free people join together in mutual defence.

Also, you need to realise that with the same reasoning, if some group wants autonomy, that is fine too. There's no need for a separate country. The UK recently gave autonomy to Scotland et al. It actually doesn't change anything. The laws remain virtually identical. Human rights remain respected, the autonomous regions remain in NATO.

So here is how to use modern trends to solve the Cyprus problem.

NATO gives a security guarantee to the GC that the TC will not attack GC. Some NATO planes land on GC. The NATO planes can come from any NATO country the GC feels comfortable with, except for Greece and Turkey. ie you can use US planes, French planes, Polish planes, whatever. Or a combination of whatever. The GC will be secure.

The GC then hands ALL their weapons over to the TC. The GC military disbands. The GC is totally defenceless except for the NATO security guarantee.

Because the TC are now a totally superior military to the GC, there is no need for them to have military protection from Turkey. Turkey withdraws all its armed forces. This is the main thing that the GC are after, and it is a reasonable thing for the GC to request, and this way it happens.

Cyprus then consists of two autonomous regions (not unlike Scotland in the UK, or even NSW in Australia). The TC can integrate with the GC at any level they feel comfortable with. Leave that entirely up to their democratic process to decide.

The TC are not going to invade GC, even when they have a superior military. Free people don't wage war on other free people. The GC have nothing to fear, but they have a NATO security guarantee for as long as they feel they need it. The GC will save money by having no military, and their standard of living will increase. It will be up to the TC to decide how much money they want to waste on a military designed to defend against another free people (ie the GC). Maybe they will one day wake up and simply ask for a similar NATO guarantee, get some non-Turk/non-Greek planes on their territory, and disband their own army. It's entirely up to them. It shouldn't even be suggested to them. Just let them come to that conclusion on their own.

Iceland is another country with no military. It relies on NATO for protection. You could argue that it is an island, so is different from GC which has a land border. Haiti is a country with no military AND a land border. They're more fearful of a military coup than an invasion from the Dominican Republic.

Regardless, the TC wouldn't dare attack a NATO protectorate. They will be massacred. It will be a turkey-shoot (literally! :-) ).

I can't see any reason for this plan to fail. Can you?
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Postby cypezokyli » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:42 pm

I can't see any reason for this plan to fail. Can you?


ofcource it will fail.
the security factor is not only important for tcs but also for gcs.
this plan ignores this important aspect.

or to put it otherwise ....it cannot fail, bc it cannot be accepted.... not even can it be proposed by any serious international organisation :wink:
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Postby kerravon » Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:40 pm

cypezokyli wrote:
I can't see any reason for this plan to fail. Can you?


ofcource it will fail.
the security factor is not only important for tcs but also for gcs.
this plan ignores this important aspect.

It doesn't ignore it. It provides a NATO security guarantee for the gcs. How many NATO forces do the gcs require in order to feel protected from the tcs?
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Postby observer » Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:35 pm

... and it gives the GCs a new organization to blame for anything that they think is not going well with their lives.

A+ to Kerravon
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Postby Piratis » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:22 pm

kerravon, if you look at the bottom of the map you gave you will see that there are 192 countries, and 18 territories. Northern part of Cyprus is NOT a country, it is a territory belonging to Republic of Cyprus which is currently under illegal Turkish occupation.

The northern, now illegal occupied, part of Republic of Cyprus is the homeland of 200.000 GCs and less than 50.000 TCs. So you can not pretend that this part of our country belongs exclusively to you to unite/separate do what you like with it, just because the Turkish troops are occupying it and have performed ethnic cleansing against us.

... and it gives the GCs a new organization to blame for anything that they think is not going well with their lives.

A+ to Kerravon

Why don't all the foreigners fuck off from our island to prove us that indeed our problems is not due to them? Because it is a fact that Cyprus suffers because the regional and world powers want to control it for their own interests and they do not want a united, free and truly independent country here.
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Postby kerravon » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:19 pm

Piratis wrote:kerravon, if you look at the bottom of the map you gave you will see that there are 192 countries, and 18 territories. Northern part of Cyprus is NOT a country, it is a territory belonging to Republic of Cyprus which is currently under illegal Turkish occupation.

Where did I say that the TC part was a country? The very first line in my message was "First of all you need to recognize that both GC and TC are classified as "free" territories, if you go here". Note the word "territories" not "countries".

The northern, now illegal occupied, part of Republic of Cyprus is the homeland of 200.000 GCs and less than 50.000 TCs.

If that were true, the democratically-elected TC government would tell the Turkish military to leave. I did a quick search and:

http://www.worldinfozone.com/country.ph ... population

"The population of Cyprus was estimated at 784,301 in 2006. Seventy-seven percent of the people are Greek, a small number live in the Turkish Cypriot area; eighteen percent are Turkish, with just over one percent living in the Greek Cypriot area."

So you can not pretend that this part of our country belongs exclusively to you to unite/separate do what you like with it, just because the Turkish troops are occupying it and have performed ethnic cleansing against us.

You need to deal with reality on the ground. If you push the TC, you are not going to get anywhere. This problem was originally caused by the GC. I'm telling you how to clean up the mess that was created by the GC attempted coup. The fact is that the TC is an independent territory, and if you don't allow them to integrate at their own pace, then they won't integrate at all. I'm telling you how you can get the Turkish military off Cyprus. My plan does not involve a GC invasion of TC, which appears to be what you want. So long as you're planning on conquering the TC, then the TC will remain afraid, and their democratically-elected government will continue to request the presence of Turkish troops.

Why don't all the foreigners fuck off from our island to prove us that indeed our problems is not due to them?

Turkey is not going to leave as long as the democratically-elected TC government wants them to stay.

Because it is a fact that Cyprus suffers because the regional and world powers want to control it for their own interests and they do not want a united, free and truly independent country here.

Pardon? What world powers want to "control" Cyprus? Both the GC and TC are independent actors, and both are democratically-elected. Turkey is not trying to "control" TC either. It is there because the democratically-elected TC government wants it to be there.

If you want Cyprus to be reunited, you need to LISTEN to the TC, not just conquer them. And the TC want to be able to control their own destiny. They don't want to be conquered by the GC. They are willing to reunite - the referendum results showed that. But they wanted to keep the Turkish military for protection. This was the main obstacle that stopped GC from approving the referendum - the continued presence of Turkey.

The GC request for the Turkish military to leave is a reasonable one. But it is a surmountable problem. The first step is to get rid of the Turkish military, without the TC fearing being conquered. Over time, the TC will probably relax, probably realise that the GC aren't going to discriminate against them, probably allow GC migration onto their territory, and maybe the autonomous TC region will one day disappear, as the TC realise that it's completely pointless maintaining a separate bureaucracy when laws in both GC and TC are identical, and neither government has racial discrimination. But you're not going to even START that process of integration and cooperation while ever you're licking your lips trying to get the Turks to leave so that you can recapture northern Cyprus and completely dominate the TC.

What would you do if you were a TC and you feared GC licking their lips? If it were me, I'd ask for the only people I could trust - Turkey - to stay there forever. I sure wouldn't trust GC with hungry eyes licking their lips! If you don't care what the TC think, you're never going to get anywhere. You need to let the TC choose their own pace of reintegration and migration levels to TC. Otherwise, you may as well forget about TC. It can basically have independence, because GC isn't serious about reunification and remains a hostile force.

Do you understand that by remaining a hostile force, you're not actually achieving anything? You're not getting Turkish forces removed, and you're not getting GC immigration into TC either. You're getting absolutely nothing at all. And the longer you keep up your hostility, the less and less likely it is that GC will ever immigrate to TC. If I were a TC, I'd rather take my chances with Turkey (who I KNOW isn't "controlling" me and forcing me to vote for (who knows what)), rather than expect the GC, seemingly bent on revenge, to look after my interests. Sorry, it ain't gonna happen. It will take years/decades for the TC to stop being suspicious of the GC. And if the GC are blaming all their problems on imaginary foreigners imaginary "controlling" them, then it's a short step from that to blaming all their problems on the TC, and suddenly deciding that a "final solution" is the way forward. Sorry, it ain't gonna happen. The TC need to take measures to protect themselves. I just explained how they can do that without requiring help from Turkey. But you don't want the TC to protect themselves. You want them to be at the mercy of whatever GC chooses to do. You're just dreaming. And if you were a TC, you wouldn't accept this either. So don't expect the TC to accept it. They're never going to accept it.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:32 pm

kerravon, the hostility is coming from you, who for the last 32 years illegaly occupy 1/3rd of our country.

In Cyprus there are no TC and GC teritories. There is Republic of Cyprus which is a country, part of which that it is illegally occupied by Turkey. The north part of our country is the homeland of 200.000. The reason that those people are not in their homes right now is because some barbarians have ethnically cleansed them and still keep them away from their homes at gun point. TCs are a minority of 18% in this country. If you want your own self determination good for you. But our land can not be part of your self-determination. You have no right to steal it from us.

You said that GCs started it. I have answered to this lame argument many times:

Piratis wrote:First of all I have to make something very clear:

I believe that we should leave the past behind, we should forgive each other, stop all illegalities and move ahead with a united democratic country without racist discriminations and with respect to the human rights of all Cypriots.

Unfortunately I notice that there some people that insist on using a tiny and selective part of the past as an excuse for the continuation of illegalities and their demand for a "solution" that will be based on racist discrimination of people based on their ethnic background (which is something that exists in no democratic country in the world)

To those people Greek Cypriots deserved the violations of their human rights for the last 32 years and they deserve to be convicted for eternal violation of their human rights in a country that discriminates against them because of their race.

The fact is however that Turks in Cyprus have committed 100 times more crimes against Greek Cypriots than the other way around.

Greek Cypriots have been the majority on the island of Cyprus for 3000+ years. Their interaction with Turks starts in the 15th century, were the Turks attacked our island. This also answers the question "Who started it" for anybody that thinks that this is important:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted. Word of the massacre spread, and a few days later Mustafa took Kyrenia without having to fire a shot. Famagusta, however, resisted and put up a heroic defense that lasted from September 1570 until August 1571.


So now it is clear how the interaction of Turks with Greek Cypriots started in Cyprus, and the question "Who started it" is answered as well.

What followed were 300 years of Ottoman rule in Cyprus. During these 3 centuries Greek Cypriots were oppressed second category citizens. They had to pay multiple times the taxes of muslims and their testimony in courts was not accepted. Whenever they tried to revolt against their oppressors they were slaughtered.

So here we have a period were Turks were oppressing and killing Greeks in Cyprus. The result of this period was 300 years of oppression against GCs and 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriots dead.

The next "round" of conflict between the two communities was at the end of the British rule in Cyprus, and then from 63 to 68. During this period extremists from both sides were committing crimes and atrocities.

This is the only period that TCs remember, but even here they remember only their own casualties and not the crimes that they had committed against GCs.

So this is a period were both sides had about an equal number of casualties, some 100s for each side.

Then in 1974 the illegal coupists overthrow our president and Turkey found the excuse to invade Cyprus. No TC was killed by the coupists before the invasion had started, but only after.
The result of the coup/invasion was 6000 GCs dead and 200.000 GCs ethnically cleansed. On the other side the TCs had only a couple of 100s of victims.

The next period is the 32 years of illegal occupation and insistence from Turkey to violate international law and human rights. This continues until today.

Conclusion:
1) The Turks "started it" in the 15th century
2) The Turks have committed much much more crimes against Greek Cypriots.
3) The Turks insist on their crimes today
4) Greek Cypriots have committed crimes as well, but only a tiny fraction of the crimes that the Turks have committed.

Still, Greek Cypriots are more than willing to put all these behind as long as we are not provoked by people that remember only the 1% of history that suits that in order to prove that Greek Cypriots are the evil people that deserve even more crimes against them.

Therefore I ask from people on this forum to either:

1) Leave the past behind. Do not try to excuse crimes and illegalities in 2006 with events that happened in the past. Concentrate on how we can find a solution that will respect all Cypriots equally without racist discriminations and human right violations.

Or, if doing (1) is impossible for you then at least:

2) If you believe that the past should be used to determine who is the "good" and who is the "bad" one and that this should be the basis of solving the Cyprus problem (instead of democracy, human rights and legality, that I propose) then at least use the whole history and not the tiny bits that suit you.


For the future there are two ways:

1) The way of respect. All illegalities stop, people return to their homes and properties. The human and democratic rights of all Cypriots are respected and Cyprus is a united normal democratic country like every other in EU.

2) The way of war. As long as you are trying to gain on our loss you will receive our answer in kind. Our homeland is not for sale and will not be signed away.

I choose (1) but If you reject it then only (2) remains.
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Postby kerravon » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:34 am

Piratis wrote:kerravon, the hostility is coming from you, who for the last 32 years illegaly occupy 1/3rd of our country.

"I" have been occupying your country??? I'm Australian. I don't know if Australian troops are in Cyprus, but if they are, it is not occupying 1/3 of the country, it will be patrolling the border between GC and TC. This is presumably another of your imaginary "blame everything on 'world powers' 'controlling'" which is so much easier than taking personal responsibility for the current situation. Next time don't start coups.

In Cyprus there are no TC and GC teritories. There is Republic of Cyprus which is a country, part of which that it is illegally occupied by Turkey. The north part of our country is the homeland of 200.000. The reason that those people are not in their homes right now is because some barbarians have ethnically cleansed them and still keep them away from their homes at gun point. TCs are a minority of 18% in this country. If you want your own self determination good for you. But our land can not be part of your self-determination. You have no right to steal it from us.

You are ignoring the reality on the ground. And by doing so you are not going to make any progress. You can whinge and moan as much as you like, but nothing is going to change while ever you try to force the TC to "just trust us hostile GCs".

You said that GCs started it. I have answered to this lame argument many times:

Your answer, dredging up irrelevant ancient history, doesn't change reality, which is that Turkish troops are only there because of the GC coup. All this trouble was caused by the GC. It will take years/decades to recover from the effects of the GC coup. And so long as you keep your hostile attitude towards the TC, nothing is going to change.

Unfortunately I notice that there some people that insist on using a tiny and selective part of the past

It's not "tiny and selective", it's the RECENT HISTORY that CAUSED TURKISH TROOPS TO ARRIVE. Everything was fine (for centuries) when Cyprus was a British colony. The only relevant history is how Cyprus went from being a British colony to an independent country to two independent territories. And no matter how difficult it is for you to face up to the truth, it was a GC coup that triggered this problem.

their demand for a "solution" that will be based on racist discrimination of people based on their ethnic background (which is something that exists in no democratic country in the world)

The TC do not have any racist laws. It's a modern democratic country. The GC minority in TC have equal rights under the law. The TC does however restrict IMMIGRATION. It doesn't want to be swamped by what are (from its perspective) foreigners. I don't think Germany would allow itself to be swamped by Hungarian immigrants either. The TC are a distinct group, and immigration should occur at a pace that they are comfortable with, or it will never happen at all.

Still, Greek Cypriots are more than willing to put all these behind as long as we are not provoked by people that remember only the 1% of history that suits that in order to prove that Greek Cypriots are the evil people that deserve even more crimes against them.

I agree that the TC should be taught the "inconvenient" history. By the same token, the GC should be taught that it was a GC coup that caused the current partition, instead of trying to shift blame by bringing up ancient and irrelevant history.

1) Leave the past behind. Do not try to excuse crimes and illegalities in 2006 with events that happened in the past. Concentrate on how we can find a solution that will respect all Cypriots equally without racist discriminations and human right violations.

My solution doesn't excuse crimes and illegalities. Nor does it involve racial discrimination or human rights violations.

2) If you believe that the past should be used to determine who is the "good" and who is the "bad" one and that this should be the basis of solving the Cyprus problem (instead of democracy, human rights and legality, that I propose) then at least use the whole history and not the tiny bits that suit you.

I didn't say anyone was "good" or "bad". The GC as a whole shouldn't be blamed for what the coup plotters did. However, it is an undisputable FACT that it was the GC coup plotters who started this problem. You can't say "the GC coup plotters only did that because (insert irrelevant historical grievance here)".

1) The way of respect. All illegalities stop, people return to their homes and properties. The human and democratic rights of all Cypriots are respected and Cyprus is a united normal democratic country like every other in EU.

No, this is the way of GC conquest over TC, disguised as "respect". The fact is you haven't taken the TC's concerns into account. And until you do so, nothing is going to change. And the longer you wait to take their concerns into account, the less and less likely it is going to be that there's ever going to be immigration from GC to TC.

2) The way of war. As long as you are trying to gain on our loss you will receive our answer in kind. Our homeland is not for sale and will not be signed away.

If you want war, then Turkey wins, with its far superior military. The TC would rather have independence than be under the thumb of hostile GC.

I choose (1) but If you reject it then only (2) remains.

No, there are more options than that.

3. TC get independence once and for all, because the GC don't care about TC concerns of being a discriminated-against minority.

4. GC take a look at the problem from the TC perspective instead of only from the GC perspective, and take whatever steps are required to allay those concerns, which basically means allowing TC to choose what immigration level they will accept, and ensure that the TC have security measures in place that will prevent the GC from forcing something political onto them.

I don't know how representative you are of the GC, but you are both ignoring reality on the ground and not making any effort to look at the problem from the TC perspective. They should be teaching GC at school what things look like from the TC perspective.
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Postby THE HIGHLANDER » Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:13 am

Hopefuly Cyprus will one day rise above all its problems and stake its right to be a main player in word economics.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:30 am

I'm Australian.


If you are Australian I am Martian.

Next time don't start coups.


Many coups happened in Turkey and in many other countries. How is that an excuse for invading an independent country and ethnically cleansing 1/3rd of its population???

You are ignoring the reality on the ground. And by doing so you are not going to make any progress. You can whinge and moan as much as you like, but nothing is going to change while ever you try to force the TC to "just trust us hostile GCs".

The reality on the ground is that Turkey is illegaly occupying 1/3rd of Cyprus.
And why Gcs are hostile? We are not the ones who insist on crimes and human rights violations.

Your answer, dredging up irrelevant ancient history, doesn't change reality, which is that Turkish troops are only there because of the GC coup. All this trouble was caused by the GC.

Here we go with your lame excuses again. The fact is that Turks did started it. At some point there were no Turks on our island. The next moment they invaded us, occupied us, and oppressed us. So who started it is very clear.
The coup was just something more that happened in our history, like the many coups that happened in Turkey itself. Nothing more than that. It didn't start anything. The hostility between Turks and Greeks existed long long long time before that, it didn't start with the coup!



It's not "tiny and selective", it's the RECENT HISTORY that CAUSED TURKISH TROOPS TO ARRIVE. Everything was fine (for centuries) when Cyprus was a British colony. The only relevant history is how Cyprus went from being a British colony to an independent country to two independent territories. And no matter how difficult it is for you to face up to the truth, it was a GC coup that triggered this problem.


Sure sure. When The Turks and the British rule Cyprus and the Turks butcher Greek Cypriots by the thousands for centuries "Everything was fine" :roll: When the Turks in 1974 perform ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people and kill 6000, rape under age girls etc, is all excused. And the only ones to blame are the GCs because of a coup we were not even responsible for. (the coup was made by the Greek Junta, not by us)


The TC do not have any racist laws. It's a modern democratic country.

:lol: It is called the pseudo puppet illegal state of Turkey, not a country. The only country in Cyprus is Republic of Cyprus.

I agree that the TC should be taught the "inconvenient" history. By the same token, the GC should be taught that it was a GC coup that caused the current partition, instead of trying to shift blame by bringing up ancient and irrelevant history.


Today Turkey is violating the rights of 100s of thousands of people as it was even proven by the European Court of Human Rights. They illegally occupy part of the Republic of Cyprus. So who is using ancient history as an excuse for crimes today? Greek Cypriots, or Turkey? The answer is Turkey.

My solution doesn't excuse crimes and illegalities. Nor does it involve racial discrimination or human rights violations.


Oh really? You know that every refugee has the right to return to his home? You know that division of Cyprus is illegal? Are you sure that your "solution" doesn't excuse crimes and illegalities?

I didn't say anyone was "good" or "bad". The GC as a whole shouldn't be blamed for what the coup plotters did. However, it is an undisputable FACT that it was the GC coup plotters who started this problem. You can't say "the GC coup plotters only did that because (insert irrelevant historical grievance here)".

Your facts are wrong.
The coup was executed by the Greek junta, not Greek Cypriots. But so what? Who invaded Turkey when one of the many coups happened there? Since when can a coup in a country be an excuse to invade it, ethnically cleanse 1/3rd of its population and occupy part of it? We see coups happening every couple of years. Have you seen invasions and ethnic clensings to be excused because of a coup????
Those that taught you Cyprus history just used "the coup" (that lasted one week) as a universal excuse for all their nasty crimes, atrocities and illegalities that go on for decades.




No, this is the way of GC conquest over TC, disguised as "respect". The fact is you haven't taken the TC's concerns into account. And until you do so, nothing is going to change. And the longer you wait to take their concerns into account, the less and less likely it is going to be that there's ever going to be immigration from GC to TC.


So human rights, democracy and the EU acquis are a disguise to "conquest" TCs?
Also, TCs exist as a minority in Cyprus because Turks conquered Cyprus, not the opposite. If TCs don't like it that they are a minority here in Cyprus then they should blame their ancestors. What is our fault?

If you want war, then Turkey wins, with its far superior military. The TC would rather have independence than be under the thumb of hostile GC.


I don't want war, but this is what we have since 1974 that Turkey invaded our island. We are now in cease fire. Peace can only come when the illegal occupation ends, not by us capitulating and accepting the occupation.

No, there are more options than that.

3. TC get independence once and for all, because the GC don't care about TC concerns of being a discriminated-against minority.

4. GC take a look at the problem from the TC perspective instead of only from the GC perspective, and take whatever steps are required to allay those concerns, which basically means allowing TC to choose what immigration level they will accept, and ensure that the TC have security measures in place that will prevent the GC from forcing something political onto them.


There are no other ways. There is either respect, peace and legality OR hostility, conflict and war.
The GCs can accommodate all the TC concerns within the limits of human rights and democracy. E.g. You can not have a "concern" that you don't like blacks, and therefore all blacks should be killed or ethnically cleansed from their homes just to satisfy your racist demands. (replace "blacks" with "GCs" and it is the same thing. I used the word "blacks" to make my point, since if I used "GCs" it would sound perfectly natural to you, as apparently you are racist against GCs)

Saying that TCs will "decide what immigration level will accept", meaning to decide how many GCs refugees will return to their own homes is an offense. How can you call "immigrant" somebody that his home and his ancestors homes has been that area for 3500 years? Are you kidding me?
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