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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:45 pm
by kurupetos
repulsewarrior wrote:
kurupetos wrote:Advice: Don't waste your time with CY prob.

...I would like to know what you think is viable, equitable, and efficient, as a form of Government which will as a result leave us united?

may I ask if you are old enough to remember when this impasse, (dating from 1963) did not exist?

What is viable, just and everlasting is what I described in my previous reply. The key concept is to remove all dividing clauses from the constitution. The rest is just details. e.g. take the 1960 constitution or the Annan plan and see how many dividing clauses exist. If we could just agree that Cyprus should be united and independent we would get the right solution. This means no inteference from any third party (UK, Greece, Turkey) and no division in the government (percentages in the parliament) and all those ridiculous things like foreign judges, etc.
That is the just solution. Do you disagree?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:48 am
by repulsewarrior
...this is the ideal: a Constitution which has no need of any differentiation between its citizens; that amongst them, the people, there exists no need to identify the nature of these parts.

Many Grecophones in Cyprus feel that; in effect there is no need for any change. Turkish Cypriots are welcome and that the Cypriot society that exists in the south is not a threat to them. If it were not for our past, all this would be true, but it is not.

Turkish Cypriots are and were marginalised by the Governments we have had for over thirty years to represent the State we hold together so dearly. It is in essence a "Greek" government, and it fails us all because its aims are for this body of its citizenship, because of their numbers it represents the vast majority, so it is said.

For your ideal to happen it would mean that all the people who live in Cyprus, would choose regardless of their own ethnicity, to see on commercial signs, to use in their everyday lives and in their Legislature the English Language exclusively (at least: not Greek or Turkish). And in this way we are free of the bias which identifies us ethnically in a manner where we are solely and simply Cypriots. This is possible, but without a consideration that is Bicommunal, and it is very unlikely.

My proposal if you think about it, offers us a means to be this ideal, world citizens with no bigotry. But, as individuals, in defence of our State we apply our separate ethnicities as a countervailing power, to test the value of the Government's legislation. Being Bicommunal, a second level of Government, the National Assemblies, assures us our sustainability as persons, as Grecophones or Turchophones.

Thus, I think you are quite correct: it is a just solution, ...but you are not right.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:24 am
by repulsewarrior
But enclaves resist integration surely?

Talisker, if I can call you Mr. T.,

I have thought about this...

and i must add that in the Cypriot context, being an island, it will allow for better integration, because in real terms, the parts as one whole are very close to each other in any case.

as the 'enclavisation' is mutual, neither is indentified as the isolated.

realisticly in any of the four choices any one citizen has for a residency, no mono clonal place will exist for him/her to live. more importantly both have the opportunity to demonstrate themselves as a majority through a wider array of communities where each community can distinguish themselves within their own society in a context where each society demonstrates an accomadating behaviour for 'others'.

Imagine what Turkish Cypriots can add to the flavour of Paphos Province again? What if there were seven enclaves in the north and three in the south, could Kyrenia stay Girne, could Varosha be open again? Could it be that there would be more than five International Airports on this island? Could it be that my opportunity to be provided good service, (or to be entertained), will be doubled anywhere close at hand on the island? It is actually appealling, that the choices are more, for any individual.

there will be no need for armed frontiers.

one armed frontier cannot exist either.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:33 am
by repulsewarrior
umit07 wrote:Repulsewarrior I don't think GC's can ever accept an agreement based on the terms you stated, as far as I understand all the politicians are only trying to disolve TC's into the existing structure of the RoC. I think this sort of representation in Gov. would be very good for TC's but as I said GC's would never agree to it. I don't know how frequently you visit cyprus, but do you think such a system is acceptable for GC's?

yes umit the Greek Cypriots are prepared to have a Unitary State, (joke: that is a step down from ENOSIS) which this model offers. because of its nature however, Greek, as well as Turkish, will find sustanance from governance, and they will have an equal governance over themselves.

i have had the good fortune to travel a few times over the decades, the last time was five year ago. I can say 'plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme', and because i am older, i can say 'something is missing'.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:31 am
by repulsewarrior
umit07 wrote:Well repulsewarrior I hope more GC's start thinking in the same way.

How do you think this reconciliation can be achieved, I for one think that we should all face history first and taste the truth whether bitter or sweet first, than can we move on and understand each others needs.

The concilliation will occur, when a State we can agree upon enacts through its Government(s) these desires. It will be natural, whether by direct action, or by an occurance, (perhaps one too many graves unearthed) that will be its cause. There is little possibility to imagine that all will remain hidden, so I am hopeful.

Where despair merits is the time that it takes, and so we chasen to haste.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:49 am
by Andros
As advised by Repulsewarrior - Here's my Proposal:

Firstly, I am seeking a Cyprus Solution with no borders, constituent states, component states and no- "treaty of Guarantee" for all. If we (all Cypriots), and President Christofias, is seeking a unified Cyprus with no-borders and restrictions, just "one" sovereignty and one international representation, then I am afraid we can not also accept double-standards with the inclusion of the British "Sovereign" area in a final agreement. Let me explain.....

In simple words, we can not argue with Turkey in a UN negotiated process to send back their troops, not include a "Treaty of Guarantee" of Turkey, Greece and the UK, while harbouring two British bases on the island!

Those two so-called British "Sovereign" areas will always be used by Turkey as an example of double-standards in any proposed "Unification" deal we throw at them. As I have said in the past, I am seeking a Cyprus unification deal where all Cypriots live with No external intervention, no legally constitutional threat of military intervention and no foreign military stations on the island. How can we seek a pure federal solution if, from day one, we start including lines of legal articles about "two sovereign" British bases, and the right for Turkey to intervene in event of inter-communal clashes and etc, etc.

Therefore, a unification deal must either be "across the board" or none at all - that is my theory, and probably President Christofias' as well. Also, and knowing the way Turkey works and what they are expecting as a base-minimum, if a unification agreement does not include at least the treaty of Guarantee and two constituent type of states similarly to the former "Annan Plan", then I think President Christofias will ultimately hit a brick wall.

If we keep on referring to the laws and rights of the 1960 treaty only in a "Future" unification deal, then we will also lose. It must be a new plan, a hybrid or all that has happened and based on EU Principles, and not just on historical signed aging non-practical out-of-date agreements. I strongly believe that a unification deal must, and can only succeed, if Turkey is cornered into understanding that an "EU" approach to unification must be based on good-will, freedom, No guarantorship clause in its constitution, No threat of military intervention on EU territory, No foreign soldiers and No British Military so-called sovereign areas. It must not include any of these. Like Mauritius, an island of peoples, regardless of their historical connection to a so-called motherland.

Alternatively, and this is only my view (although, according to a recent interview with Christofias by the Cyprus Mail in late 2007 it sounds like our President also agrees that if a new UN plan includes even one of the mentioned non-acceptable terms above, he would also not accept unification), I would personally prefer partition of three states - The Republic of Cyprus, a Turkish Cypriot State, and your so-called British Sovereign Area.

In that case, Turkey can intervene legally in as much as it wants in a Turkish Cypriot State only, at least we Greek Cypriots will be rid of such unacceptable terms. The above is only some of the reasons why our people had vote "No" to the former "Annan Plan 5", and disagree with the Turkish Cypriot leaders most recent call for a UN process based on the Annan Plan 5. If this is what Mr Talat believes will be the foundation of future negotiations, I hope that President Christofias will quickly put him in his place.

Sorry all - but it's got to be all or nothing to me: I wish for a unified republic of Cyprus, and not one with more restrictions and derogations than a prison camp!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:37 pm
by repulsewarrior
Andros, I agree with your thinking, but it is not Bicommunal. It does not sustain a "Greekness" in the long run because our population will grow dramatically in the long term with a demographic that will change in ways that will make this culture, by population an insignificant number. In the short run, it will end with the assimilation of Turkish Cypriots which is also unacceptable for the same reasons.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:59 pm
by Kikapu
I too agree with Andros's way of thinking. You are either a Country or just a PUPPET with others hand stuck up our backside to move us the way they want to move us.

The "show" is over. It's time for the REAL THING from now on.

Those who do not want this and want the "show" to continue, there's is a CIRCUS in town where they can go to.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:06 pm
by wallace
What kind of drugs is he using???? :D

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:09 pm
by repulsewarrior
I think you guys should read your Constitution...

I think you should think about your sustainability in a changing world as people, where we as Cypriots demonstrate a respect for diversity, in all its forms, while we defend our "Greekness" and our "Turkishness".