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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:56 pm
by zan
repulsewarrior wrote:zan whatever what will happen the island will repopulate. Moreso, there will be displaced, and the rights of the already displaced require beyond recognition a redress which is seen to serve Justice.

I like enclaves because they are much like real estate developments. The developer of course builds to their taste, and profits by providing services, the dwellers live their by their own choice. In any case there is no ethnic barrier to live anywhere. There is no doubt if we are to expand, the demands on infrastructure will increase. small footprints with higher concentrations of people will help preserve the landscape's beauty. more importantly, these communities will grow to have their own distinctions adding to the diversity of their respective societies. most importantly it addresses the issue of land in a manner where the victims see a change, and Justice, equally and for the incidences of the '60's as well as '74. even if the 'border' or 'line' remains its importance will be Jurisdictional (in terms of the National Assemblies) and of historical significance for evermore, without having to be defended by one or the other, existing by Charter to define another level of Government, protected by their definition in the Constitution, they provide service, their policy may be representing their electorate as a majority, for an electorate who identify themselves as persons, but the State is Sovereign over the island's territory, and for defending every citizen, and their Individual Rights.

"There are those that are nopt happy and then there are those that are extremely happy but that goes as the norm on planet earth. As for being set free...We were...In 1974...We had thye run of 37% of our island and not the 3% you had us in under the gun." zan, reread this, must be tired, i was not expecting ever to hear this from you. it implies that you are for the status quo, with an occupation that leaves for Turkish Cypriots one of the most militarised places in the world to call their 'home'. it implies that you support the illegal acts of the Turkish Army, to justify this Ignorance on the "GCs'" part. this is insupportable. Your point about two governing bodies as functional over many years is valid. and a Unitary State is what is best. what is needed therefore is a counterpart for the Turkish Cypriot authority, a Greek Cypriot authority, as two National Assemblies, which frees the State and its Governance of this issue as an internal affair, Bicommunal, where citizens see themselves as Individuals, and where as Persons their Rights are addressed through self representation, as well.

It is a virgin birth, with all the blood and drama which will come at the moment, not unlike any other birth, it is ugly and from its appearance it does not bode well. yet, it has no need for a father but what is, and the mother remains virtuous with those principals which are for always unsullied, while what is born is something new and vital.

OP, will you comment on the voting process, for the Republic's Legislature? Do you think that it will demonstrate a form of representation in the future for a citizenry which has as a large part people who are neither 'Greek' or 'Turkish'?.

There is more than just the refugees that demand justice RW and that may be something else that we ALL have to forget about in order to go forward.

I hate the idea of enclaves. It makes me think of no go areas which people circumvent and avoid. The border is a point of conflict and bad feeling as it is so to be surrounded by a people that might not think too highly of you is claustrophobic for me......I truly believe that it is another opportunity to isolate the TCs and create economically poorer areas. We really need to get our heads around that fact that there is conflict of interests here and factor that it.....Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:48 pm
by repulsewarrior
People change their mind zan. Unless everything stays just the way it is, you will have to change yours too. Your 'refugees' feel the same way i do if there was a place they loved, that they were a part of, that was theirs. as to the why people had to be murdered, this shame is not an answer. We who remain living absolutely need to demonstrate our respect for the Principals, that the illwill ignored, and resulted in our being further divided and afraid, with answers, as with acts, that can change all our lives, and for the better.

Enclaves are a dirty word, and i won't deny that. That is because of its usage throughout Modern History. Circles of wagons/reserves, and the masses overwhelminging a much smaller adversary, rounding them up after the fact, these are the descriptions of enclaves which immediately come to mind.

but what are enclaves,...
...merely, as a physical sense?
where is its ying as its yang.

Now consider how enclaves are useful to our geography, if they spotted the whole island, as it is today.

And remember, in this fanatsy you are living in a Unitary State, with no borders (but many more frontiers), mobile, free to associate, outspoken even, having a residency where you can vote from, once for your representatives in the Legislature of this State, (which provides you your credibility as an Individual, to defend you extraterritorially), and once for the Member of the National Assembly of your electoral riding (which has the Jurisdiction to provide you with those services that you choose in your daily life).

Cyprus should be multilingual, I suggest that this characteristic in the long run will be broadened, and become more complex, so that it can be exploited to its fullest potential; with a result in the very long run of many Greek speaking Arabs, and/or many Turkish speaking Jews, so many, that they too will wish to sustain these entities, as Cypriots, communally, for themselves, as persons, as well. Scarey stuff, but realistic, and quite frankly I believe not a problem if we live as Cypriots, and if we as Human Beings cease to sustain ourselves through plundering, now that the very survival of the planet as we know it is at stake. Thus the living Heritance we have nurtured on this island, and the relics, are important to Mankind, that dividing it between "Greeks" and "Turks" is Ignorance. Cypriots are the stewards who have for thousands of years successfully cared for this land, which as a result provides much wealth for Human study, and for the first time in their history they are on the brink of freeing themselves from interlocutors, who are not the dwellers. I am most hopeful that an opportunity exists for a Solution now.

and my hope is that we all remember that Cyprus is an island.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:23 pm
by zan
You cannot force the enclaves on people RW and if left to nature it will take thousands of years if they happen at all. People like to be with others they can relate to. The idea of having to have UN escort to get from one enclave to another is still fresh in peoples minds and even in mine when I was too young to remember, or so I thought. Waiting in the hot sun and the white painted stones are etched in my brain. I felt the fear of the adults even so.

We are not children any more and I am not willing to let others to be responsible for my safety. The idea of just two enclaves suits me more...One in the South and the other in the North. If good will is to be the order of the day then I see no reason as to why that can't be achieved in this way. Other neighboring countries get on well enough so why can't two lots of Cypriots.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:48 pm
by repulsewarrior
zan, the idea of UN escorts is ridiculous. there will be no military, there will be no border, there will be island dwellers like you and me who persue happiness; and like people everywhere on this planet, aware that this Custom has a definition in the Rule of Law.

zan, Denktash, (a hero because he did this) opened the gates to prove to all of us that this was so, ending the isolation. ...if you have these fears, you can give help; and you need help yourself, with this desire for the isolation to continue.

even Ecevit has his credit due, if this idea (enclaves) i hold dearly, is his, as people who referenced it, claim to be true. To me it is a map, in a newspaper, defining "bizonal", i saw in 1974. and if Cypriots commit themselves to living "bicommunally" so be it, but there must be a State to protect the wealth that Cypriots have cultivated over Millenia beyond its greekness or its turkishness (and outside of their ethicity), where as this island's dwellers we can put the interests of the island first.

zan, please put your fear aside for the puposes of discussion; would this proposal serve your needs as it serves the needs of all Cypriots. If you imagine this island thriving with people, can this Governance serve their needs?

Is there a solution more Just?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:11 pm
by zan
I have no desire for the isolation or bad feelings to continue RW :? I have no desire to throw caution to the wind either...I am an electrician and even by nature I do not gamble with life......I make sure. I have fantasies of wonderful things but reality is much more reassuring.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:37 pm
by Oracle
When people vote, they should be neither Greek (GC ) nor Turk (TC) ...... but individuals ...... above all else, the right of the individual should be respected, no matter what community they finally affiliate with (for day to day existence).

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:41 pm
by Oracle
zan wrote:I have no desire for the isolation or bad feelings to continue RW :? I have no desire to throw caution to the wind either...I am an electrician and even by nature I do not gamble with life......I make sure. I have fantasies of wonderful things but reality is much more reassuring.

Zan ... the little white box says 15 in the house I am staying in at the moment. The Electricity board say I have to get an electrician to zoom me up to 40 ....

I hate trade and manual workers in my home ... how can I do it myself? :?

Re: Manifesto: for your consideration

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:35 pm
by Eric dayi
repulsewarrior wrote:

Manifesto for a virgin birth based on the Principals of our Constitution (that of 1960) for a Governance which is Bicommunal, and a redress for all Displaced Persons.

A letter to:

Christofias Demetris, President of the Republic of Cyprus
Mehemet Ali Talat, Cumhurbaskani (KKTC)
To all the Citizens of the island of Cyprus

I offer my humble observations in the hope that they may be a guide toward a solution which is a demonstration of our Humanity, as Cypriots.

As a basis of negociation there is a long history of resolutions, and proposals toward the Problem and its Solution.

For close to half a century we have struggled to define the meaning of that basic principal in our Constitution which makes our identity bicommunal. Bizonal has been less clear to us, as to meaning, and although it is the most important issue, land, we are far from clearing this impasse.

In my Cyprus the meaning of these words are clear.
And I believe, their consideration was well chosen by Makarios and Denktash.

Bizonal means two parts; with each part made up of components.

Bicommunal means two levels of government; in our case three governing bodies.

Cyprus, the Republic of Cyprus, has had a dysfunctional government from its advent. For whatever reasons, enclaves became a part of our geography, allowing for distinctions to form where Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots would grow apart. Now the displaced are measured in hundreds of thousands and the occupation by the Turkish Army remains, with the hope it will withdraw, when there exists reforms that Cypriots make for themselves as equal with a sense that their governance shall sustain them.

In my Cyprus the line which divides it in two would remain.

In my Cyprus some of the displaced shall return as communities, and all displaced shall have the Right of Return.

In my Cyprus in voting, in any election, people are defined by their residence, not by their ethnicity.

In my Cyprus a strong Central Government, with its Executive, and an Independent Judiciary will be Sovereign in defending our identities as individuals, our Individual Rights, and the Heritance which makes the island’s culture wealthy, beyond the interests of any single community of persons.

In my Cyprus there are two National Assemblies, where citizens represent themselves as persons, to have Jurisdiction over Territories defined, each as a Zone, providing to these electors the services they need in their daily lives in a manner where, they can as a majority sustain themselves first, while recognising their grace and providing for the special needs of minoroities amongst them.

In my Cyprus, enclaves, like jewels will be scattered across its map. Famagusta will be opened, Girne will remain, Komi Kebir will thrive, and a new township will be founded by Turkish Cypriots near Paphos.

In my Cyprus there is no need for the Military, even if there are many frontiers.

A Unitary State exists which which is in need of reform. The Principal of Bicommunality must be demonstrated as a useful political tool when people share a land and an identity between them. Cyprus is an island, afterall.

I imagine a Bicameral Legislature for the Government of our State. I imagine an Upper House, its seats divided equally between Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot representatives. I imagine a Lower House whose seats are filled by representatives Independent of National Parties, proportionally elected, who through their speaker choose amongst them voting members for all the Government Committees where they have seats, debating Legislation, and voting by consensus

A Leader, to win the Presidency, through his Party must gain a majority of seats in the Upper House. Thus, his/her ethnicity is of no importance having to provide candidates to fill all the seats.

The voter shall vote thricely, once from each of three slates: an Independent, a Turkish Cypriot, and a Greek Cypriot representative.

Futuristically, over 200 years, we must consider having a population of 12 million. The mono clonal tendancies of today, when isolation is removed, and when our EU membership is beyond its advent, will no longer resist the changes of a world far more associated, and I hope at peace in the Middle East, and Africa. Bicommunality will allow us to choose as persons our identity, while as individuals equal we will seek to work toward our betterment as Human beings embracing the changes the future brings in our demographics as the most Socialised Country in the World..

Without our representation in National Assemblies we cannot provide to our culture another facet which enriches it, nor can its two counterparts be sustained any other way.

With a Unitary State we represent ourselves as this island’s dwellers, our expression as Human beings toward acts of betterment above any Nationality, as the Stewards for this Heritage, for the love of its trees, and of its relics, that are even older than the cultures in which we wish to sustain ourselves, (to Neolithic times). This history if you are Cypriot is interwoven in your own. It is a single line unbroken; we can remain great cooperators, yet for the first time in thousands of years, we can be free from subjugation.

Rise up citizen, if you disagree with my proposal, choose one that is better, and more Just.

Send it to our leaders, they need our help now.

My name is repulsewarrior, and as a citizen of the world you can find me on google.

Cyprus: three governments; One Capital, and Free.

are there corrections which can be made? will you sign this letter with me?
is there a Solution which is better or more Just?

So you propose to have us TCs scattered all over the island in enclaves surrounded on all sides by GCs?

Your "proposal" is nothing but a personal wish to divide us TCs into smaller communities so that you can then pick us off easily and realise your dream of turning Cyprus into a Greek island.

And you want us to take you seriously and sign your "proposal"? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I have seen some very stupid "proposals" from GCs RW but your one has got to be at the top of the "stupidest of the stupid proposals" list.

I am almost sure that you don't need me or anyone else telling you what you can do with your "proposal pal. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:17 am
by Get Real!
Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:I have no desire for the isolation or bad feelings to continue RW :? I have no desire to throw caution to the wind either...I am an electrician and even by nature I do not gamble with life......I make sure. I have fantasies of wonderful things but reality is much more reassuring.

Zan ... the little white box says 15 in the house I am staying in at the moment. The Electricity board say I have to get an electrician to zoom me up to 40 ....

I hate trade and manual workers in my home ... how can I do it myself? :?

If you're talking about the amps (current) of your home's power supply then no you can't do it yourself unless you're into euthanasia.

But why do they suggest 40A? :? Have you got powerful 3-phase gear like a good air conditioning system? I manage fine with 30A.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:28 am
by denizaksulu
Oracle wrote:RW ... I think there is no place for "two communities" on Cyprus ... or complicated forms of Government!.

Why not one community of Cypriots ... made up of true RoC citizens ... not traitors ... not partisans to foreigners ... just EU members resident in Cyprus .... using their one vote to have a say!

Will not the 'traitors' include a large section of the GC population? :shock: :shock: