Cyprus-Forum.com

Andros wrote:President Christofias and Talat said:
Cyprus's new name has been agreed by both parties as the United Federal Republic of Cyprus

.
Why do you disrespect readers with a thread having no CREDIBLE LINK?

Oracle wrote:

Andros wrote:Hi Oracle,

I'll refrain from answering the "Turk" part. I'm sure if I were a Turk, what was mentioned above would obviously be their Nightmare scenario as we all know that they what the Status Quo or the Annan Plan scenario and not be reduced to a federated stated under a dominant Greek Cypriot lead Republic of Cyprus - Cheers,
Andros.

In that case, just give me your real feelings on this:

States: Republic of Cyprus and the Turkish Cypriot Federated State.

In other words why does one "state" have an ethnicity?

For the simple reason they feel that they have an Ethnicity at the time the other side's people came from Mars!!!!!!

Andros wrote:In simple terms, a Federated Turkish Cypriot State is to attach itself on the Republic of Cyprus, thus creating a UNITED Federal REPULIC of CYPRUS. It's very simple logic, and very tactful by the two leaders. Although, we all do naturally know that this will not materialise!

'Attach'... like a parasite?

I suppose the idea of giving the 'Turkish Constituent State' a nationality in its title is so when they decide to pull out of the federation then it's perfectly clear who the north side will be for and so everyone else will know to get out.

DT and Andros make an interesting point about whether before a new entity comes into being both of the predecessor entities have to be 'recognised.' The answer is surely no. It is not a chicken and egg problem.

It is quite possible for a new legal entity to incorporate entities which had no previous legal identity or unrecognised status. As far as I can tell the issue is largely one of whether the new entity is wholly new and owes little or nothing to its predecessor entities, or whether the new entity seeks to integrate and incorporate provisions of the predecessor entities.

Metaphorically speaking, in principle though the flag/s of the old entities could be lowered at 24.00 hours midnight and the new flag of the new entity could be raised at 00.00 hours midnight. (Personally I'd ditch flags of any kind; more trouble than their worth).

...relax guys.

The effort of the two leaders is to define bicommunal in a manner where it can be emulated anywhere. Bizonal must also be defined beyond (partition) an island sliced in two. This little bit of social-engineering is incomplete as a tool which can be used for the betterment of the Human Condition; after all they are political scientists.

it is a debate between what is and what could be, or should be:

United implies something made up of components.

Federal implies a constituency.

and Republic implies representation through one leader, being a President elected by all.

Thus, beyond Unity, and one Government, whether National Assemblies have a name or not, this level of the experiment involves the self representation of the elector as Persons, rather than Individuals. The impasse has evolved because this ranking of collectivity has never been applied in the spirit of Goodwill, and it is important for our State to refine itself, so that it sustains (this) its identity as well.

bicommunal is a notion which is quite modern because it gives "Nation" and "State" distinct identities. I suppose in Switzerland, "Italians" are as proud as "Greeks" or "Turks" here, in Cyprus. Yet the "Italian" sees themself united with other nationalities as Swiss. Cypriots have yet to define this Principal for themselves.

Cyprus is not "Greek", it just happens to be the largest population on the island right now. "Greeks" as Cypriots have a right to sustain their identity, as do "Turks", (and Maronites). Like a 'parasite' Nations should not be attached to the State.

Perhaps English should be our only 'Official Language', in an ultimate demonstration of our convictions as a social people, so that we can apply ourselves by choice to the languages we get so much pleasure from, by recognising the special needs of minorities and providing for them within our respective societies.

Seriously...with our introduction into the EU, and the hope for peace in the Middle East, and Africa, never mind Turkey (and Pakistan), where will we be in two hundred years?

(how will our choices contribute to this progress?)

Without this consideration no Solution will be self sustaining, secular, or 'democratic'.

growuptcs,

Good point! All, or most of my posts, are manly geared in persuading our Greek Cypriot brothers that the Turkish people, whether from Cyprus or Turkey, will never accept a federal deal that falls short of the Annan Plan. The UN, U.S and the E.U are all in agreement to this. The only people who are not, and who believe in a pure Federal formula with no guarantees, inter states or Annan style scenarios is us (The Greek Cypriot people of Cyprus). For some strange reason, we believe, like how the events of 1974 are taboo in our eyes, that the Turks will suddenly say,

"Oh Yes, let's all sign a pure federal deal and live peaceful side by side as if the past was as sweat as sugar"

,

"And, don't worry about Turkey as they are going home with no bad feelings as they no longer have any interests on the island, AND will ACTUALLY leave us all alone".

Please everyone. The only reason why Christofias is so bent in starting such a peace process is because he knows that the north would become recognised, or at least operate like Taiwan if the Cyprus issue is ignored.

Therefore, what I am saying is for our ROC to come clean on this affair, a bit like the situation of Czechoslovakia maybe and end it once and for all. Otherwise, if we sign a FEDERAL DEAL, like with the Dual FORMER Serbia/Montenegro Republic, we will one day wake up with a recognised Turkish Cypriot State and us with the remains of a former UNITED FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS.

It may not be realised by some of our hopefuls today, but I have been around for too long to BELIEVE that this process is any different from the many others before it.

Thus, let's push our leaders into averting a disaster in the future, as once we've signed away the ROC - it can NEVER BE BROUGHT BACK!!!!!!!


If you don't believe me - Continue what you are doing!!!!!!!

TALAT STILL OPTIMISTIC ABOUT REACHING A POLITICAL SETTLEMENT IN CYPRUS BEFORE END OF 2008
President Mehmet Ali Talat has said he is optimistic about reaching a political settlement in Cyprus before the end of this year.

He however said that he got the impression that the Greek Cypriot Side was not ready to start comprehensive negotiations on the 21st of June as initially agreed.

In an interview with the associated press, the TRNC President said that he was still hopeful about starting full-fledged negotiations next month and to find a solution to the Cyprus Problem before the end of 2008.

Expressing his optimism about overcoming any existing differences in positions which may stand as an obstacle in the way of starting comprehensive negotiations with the Greek Cypriot leader, Talat said “I’m really optimistic because there is change on the Greek Cypriot Side. It could be possible to find a settlement before the end of this year.”

Pointing out that there is an accumulation of technical work prepared from previous initiatives launched on the Cyprus Problem, the President said the negotiations process, when started, will mainly focus on the thornier issues such as property rights, territorial arrangements and security.

Despite his optimism, the President also said that he didn’t believe the Greek Cypriot Side was ready to start full-fledged negotiations next month, adding that this was a problem which the Greek Cypriot leadership should overcome.

Meanwhile, President Mehmet Ali Talat who is in Brussels as guest of the Slovenian Foreign Minister Dimtrij Rupel has completed his contacts.

As part of his contacts on Tuesday, Mr. Talat met with Slovenian Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel.

During the meeting, the Slovenian Foreign Minister expressed his full support to the ongoing process on the Cyprus Problem.

Rupel is also said to have expressed his country’s stance in favor of the start of the negotiations process, as set in line with the 21st of March Agreement between the two leaders.

On Monday, the President met with Slovakian Foreign Minister Jan Kubis and French State Minister in charge of European Affairs Jean Pierre Jouyet, respectively.

Relations between the TRNC and the European Union and the latest developments concerning the Cyprus issue were discussed during the meetings.

Get Real! wrote:

Andros wrote:President Christofias and Talat said:
Cyprus's new name has been agreed by both parties as the United Federal Republic of Cyprus

.
Why do you disrespect readers with a thread having no CREDIBLE LINK?

GR, disrespect is a noun that has been made into a verb by the Americans. They have fucked up Cyprus, please don't help them do the same to the English language by using their verbal corruptions.

CopperLine wrote:DT and Andros make an interesting point about whether before a new entity comes into being both of the predecessor entities have to be 'recognised.' The answer is surely no. It is not a chicken and egg problem.

It is quite possible for a new legal entity to incorporate entities which had no previous legal identity or unrecognised status. As far as I can tell the issue is largely one of whether the new entity is wholly new and owes little or nothing to its predecessor entities, or whether the new entity seeks to integrate and incorporate provisions of the predecessor entities.

Metaphorically speaking, in principle though the flag/s of the old entities could be lowered at 24.00 hours midnight and the new flag of the new entity could be raised at 00.00 hours midnight. (Personally I'd ditch flags of any kind; more trouble than their worth).

CopperLine, could you please elaborate as to how you understand or envision a solution of the Cyprus issue under a BBF to possibly emerge? Is it going to be an evolution of the existing RoC, or is it going to be a wholly new legal entity?

I remind you that in the case of a wholly new legal entity emerging, without owing anything to the existing and fully recognized (with the exception of Turkey) RoC, i.e. the new entity is not a successor of the RoC; it means that (at least as far as the EU is concerned,) a cancellation or amendment of the existing treaty of accession between Cyprus and the EU is needed, and this requires the signature of all 27 members states and their parliaments –including that of the RoC, and a new accession process to go through and a new treaty of accession to be signed by all the existing EU member states, this time with the new legal entity in Cyprus.

Do you believe the GC side will ever sign a solution deal which will require themselves and the RoC to go through all these? Furthermore, do you believe the EU, (its institutions and its bureaucracy,) and all the 27 EU member states (governments and parliaments,) are willing to go through such a hassle, 5 years after Cyprus has already been a member of the EU and has undertaken so many commitments already, and signed so many agreements that will all need to be changed? Do you realize what this means?

Furthermore, if an entirely new legal entity will take over Cyprus, without this being a successor of the RoC, what happens to all the hundreds of international legal obligations, international treaties, international loans and World Bank and EU bank deposits, and EU loans and commitments already undertaken or EU surplus payments made by the RoC, during its past 50 years of its life? Do you also realize that the RoC, besides an EU member state, since this year is also a member of the Economic and monetary Union of the EU, which means that it also co-decides on the fait of the Euro and the EU's monetary policy? Do you realize what this means?

I know your secret wish (and please no need to deny this) is for the GC side to "buy" into the Turkish wishes, as to how a solution to the Cyprus issue should emerge, i.e. dissolution and abandonment of the RoC, and creation of an entirely new international legal entity, via "virgin-birth," on the basis of a partnership between two imaginary ethnic states, a GC one in the south and a TC in one the north, however, do you seriously believe that after considering all the above, such a thing is possible and logically feasible? Let's see how pragmatic you are, and how much you understand about international law and politics!

Andros wrote:growuptcs,

Good point! All, or most of my posts, are manly geared in persuading our Greek Cypriot brothers that the Turkish people, whether from Cyprus or Turkey, will never accept a federal deal that falls short of the Annan Plan. The UN, U.S and the E.U are all in agreement to this. The only people who are not, and who believe in a pure Federal formula with no guarantees, inter states or Annan style scenarios is us (The Greek Cypriot people of Cyprus). For some strange reason, we believe, like how the events of 1974 are taboo in our eyes, that the Turks will suddenly say,

"Oh Yes, let's all sign a pure federal deal and live peaceful side by side as if the past was as sweat as sugar"

,

"And, don't worry about Turkey as they are going home with no bad feelings as they no longer have any interests on the island, AND will ACTUALLY leave us all alone".

Please everyone. The only reason why Christofias is so bent in starting such a peace process is because he knows that the north would become recognised, or at least operate like Taiwan if the Cyprus issue is ignored.

Therefore, what I am saying is for our ROC to come clean on this affair, a bit like the situation of Czechoslovakia maybe and end it once and for all. Otherwise, if we sign a FEDERAL DEAL, like with the Dual FORMER Serbia/Montenegro Republic, we will one day wake up with a recognised Turkish Cypriot State and us with the remains of a former UNITED FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS.

It may not be realised by some of our hopefuls today, but I have been around for too long to BELIEVE that this process is any different from the many others before it.

Thus, let's push our leaders into averting a disaster in the future, as once we've signed away the ROC - it can NEVER BE BROUGHT BACK!!!!!!!


If you don't believe me - Continue what you are doing!!!!!!!

Very wise post by no doubt an intelligent and a wise Cypriot .