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Our friend Turkcyp says that for the TCs in the context of "bbf" it is not that "bizonal" but it is
the "bicommunal" part that is important for them. He also thinks that most TCs would vote yes to their return to 1960 under some conditions.Please read his message herebelow.

I think it is very important to vote for his idea.Perhaps the solution was always in front of us but we never saw it.In case you winder whether you are a GC a TC or a foreigner please vote in the group you think is closer to you.

Turkcyp wrote:Trust me if by some magic way RoC can make us believe
that 1960 constitutional order will be upheld, then TCs
will ask Turkish Army to leave. But until that day that
you convince us that "you are not again cheat us from
our rights, they are here to save our asses, and it is
called "peace operation" for us".

So the way I see it is RoC government duty to make us
believe that we are going to be fairly treated according
to laws of 1960 constitution. For example, if RoC can
come up with a proposal as follows (or something in
similar lines):
- The next election will be hold according to 1960
agreements, and all the eligible TCs will use their 1960
constitutional rights.
- And immediately with the election Turkish troops will
start to withdraw to be completed in lets say 2 years.
- And any halfway fair proposal to solve the property
problem to go with above points.
My opinion is that majority of TCs would have vote "Yes"
to that kind of solution. As I have said it before in
the context of "bbf" it is not that "bizonal" but it is
the "bicommunal" part that is important for us.

turkcyp wrote:Our friend Turkcyp says that for the TCs in the context of "bbf" it is not that "bizonal" but it is
the "bicommunal" part that is important for them. He also thinks that most TCs would vote yes to their return to 1960 under some conditions.Please read his message herebelow.

I don't agree at all. Both bicommunality and bizonality are equally important. I don't think you'll find many TCs who would accept to live all around the island like before 1974. Bizonality is very important for TCs because it provides the security of living together in an area mainly administred by TCs with no fear of harassment like before 1974. I don't know how turkcyp reached the conclusion that bizonality is not important.

I think TCs might vote yes to return to their rights in 1960 with added bizonality but this is just a personal opinion.

turkcyp wrote:Trust me if by some magic way RoC can make us believe
that 1960 constitutional order will be upheld, then TCs
will ask Turkish Army to leave. But until that day that
you convince us that "you are not again cheat us from
our rights, they are here to save our asses, and it is
called "peace operation" for us".

So the way I see it is RoC government duty to make us
believe that we are going to be fairly treated according
to laws of 1960 constitution. For example, if RoC can
come up with a proposal as follows (or something in
similar lines):
- The next election will be hold according to 1960
agreements, and all the eligible TCs will use their 1960
constitutional rights.
- And immediately with the election Turkish troops will
start to withdraw to be completed in lets say 2 years.
- And any halfway fair proposal to solve the property
problem to go with above points.
My opinion is that majority of TCs would have vote "Yes"
to that kind of solution. As I have said it before in
the context of "bbf" it is not that "bizonal" but it is
the "bicommunal" part that is important for us.

And does anybody seriously believe that it’s up to any declaration by the RoC that the Turkish troops will live from Cyprus?
Does it even depend on any such request by the TC community that Turkey will simply say “Ok guys, I am living you alone as from tomorrow, have a nice time” and pack up and go home?

Is it a matter of a simple declaration?? Are they here only to save your Asses, as you said turkcyp?

Didn’t you all hear what the grand Generale Mr. Hilmi Özkök said only last week that Cyprus was still of primary strategic importance for Turkey?

The thing I dont like about the 1960 constittution is that it basically creates two different entities in Cyprus (for whatever reason). I dont think its right for a TC to never have the chacne to be president but only VP.

Of course no matter what solution occurs it will discriminate to TCs voting for TCs and GCs voting for GCs so who knows maybe 1960 would be fairest solution.

magikthrill wrote:The thing I dont like about the 1960 constittution is that it basically creates two different entities in Cyprus (for whatever reason). I dont think its right for a TC to never have the chacne to be president but only VP.

but would prefer a solution where the effective chance of a TC being either president or vp is near to zero?

erolz wrote:
but would prefer a solution where the effective chance of a TC being either president or vp is near to zero?

No I would prefer a solution that had the grounds for allowing a TC to also be come president one day. Not because he is a TC but because he is the most compitent candidate to represent the country.

if cyprus were to return to the 1960 agreements would the property also be given accordingly to its rightfull owners?

YOu know my vote....

boulio wrote:if cyprus were to return to the 1960 agreements would the property also be given accordingly to its rightfull owners?

The way I see it the biggest sticking point of not being able to turn back to 1960 constitution (and for that matter for achievement any solution) is property issue.

There has to be some sort of arrangement done between TCs and GCs about property to be exchanged if it is feasible and voluntary. The reason being is many TCs had build many new houses on empty GC plots, and made substantial investments on GC properties. (And the same for many GCs too especially on the touristic places, I heard).

Also there are many TC and GC properties basically being left to demolish because nobody was in them, many TC farm land being left to be unusable because nobody was farming them, and also many TC and GC property has been acquired for civic projects by two governments like roads, hospitals, parks, etc. etc. For example if a TC got a GC land and build a 100 room hotel on that land, you may imagine that he may not want to give that property back, if he is not compensated the current value of the hotel. You know what I mean.

So if anybody is thinking that this proposal is going to result in 100% return of all refugees for both sides they are big time mistaken. The returning refuges will probably much more than the Annan Plan, but it will never reach to 100% because of the above explained impossibilities.

OF course everybody will have to get compensated for the loss property. But again we will be concentrating only on solving the property issue (as asked for point three in the first proposal) instead of concentrating on all the other issues, like trying to limit if GC can settle in TC state, or all the other constitutional issues.

Also after some period of time, we can establish a joint commission to reform 1960 agreements and constitution into today’s standards, taking into account GC and TC concerns. But as I always said, in order to reform something it has to be operational first. So let’s apply it first then we can try to reform it. Trust me you may find TCs very easy on some changes like %30 requirement of government employees.

Kifeas wrote:And does anybody seriously believe that it’s up to any declaration by the RoC that the Turkish troops will live from Cyprus?
Does it even depend on any such request by the TC community that Turkey will simply say “Ok guys, I am living you alone as from tomorrow, have a nice time” and pack up and go home?

Is it a matter of a simple declaration?? Are they here only to save your Asses, as you said turkcyp?

Didn’t you all hear what the grand Generale Mr. Hilmi Özkök said only last week that Cyprus was still of primary strategic importance for Turkey?

Kifeas this post of yours is again very sorry my language but really ridiculous. It sounds like GCs saying they did not vote for A.Plan because they think Turkey was not going to abide by it. I can listen every complaint of GCs about A. Plan but this does not make sense to me. You are basically accusing Turkey for something they have not done yet, and trying to punish Turkey for your expectations. It is totally ridiculous.

Plus, in my opinion, Turkey will not care about leaving the island, as long as all the 1960 agreements is left in place. I mean it was those agreements that have enabled them to come to an island, and they can come again if things go wrong again in Cyprus. Turkey will have to reduce its forces to 650, and Greek forces will have to be reduced to 950, and all the RoC armed forces will be abolished but one 2000 men armed force asked for the 1960 constitution.

Personally everybody that reads my posts in this forum knows that I am all for full demilitarization. But that has to be done with changes to 1960 constitutional agreements. And for that to happen we have to force make 1960 constitutional agreements operational.

If you want we can start discussing changes to those agreements immediately as well, but it has to be understood that if those change attempts fail, 1960 agreements will stay as they are.

magikthrill wrote:

erolz wrote:
but would prefer a solution where the effective chance of a TC being either president or vp is near to zero?

No I would prefer a solution that had the grounds for allowing a TC to also be come president one day. Not because he is a TC but because he is the most compitent candidate to represent the country.

As long as both President and VP have the same powers why do TCs bother to become a President?

boulio wrote:if cyprus were to return to the 1960 agreements would the property also be given accordingly to its rightfull owners?

No. Still noone can force any TC to abandon the properties he/she invested for 30 years and go South to start from scratch. Most of the TC properties in South lost its market value due to lack of any investment, restoration and improvements. Why should any TCs financially go 30 even 40 years back? It is a fact that overwhelming majority of TC refugees know the disadvantegous of returning their former properties. Neither financially nor socially it is feasible for them. Furthermore, for most TCs it's not secure to return South.