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Piratis wrote:Have it ever passed your mind that the balance in the 1960 agreements with all those 30% and 40% and vetos etc, was actually in favor of TCs and this is one of the reasons we had conflicts?

Ok, let's assume that TCs having excessive rights were one of the reasons why we had conflicts. What would happen if we had one man one vote in Cyprus in 1960? You know it...we would have Enosis. You can't deny this after what happenned in 1960s. Makarious publicly announced that independence was a step for Enosis. Therefore, how could you expect TCs not to ask for safeguards against Enosis?

Piratis wrote:I said that this was one of the problems, not the only one. GCs also have made mistakes that led to the conflict. The main mistake was that they didn't believe in independence and they were trying for something else instead.

There you go. You just said it. GCs didn't believe in independence. If there were no safeguards for TCs in the RoC constitution, Enosis was inevitable. I still don't understand how you can complain about TC veto rights when you accept that your side didn't believe in independence and they were trying something else (i.e. Enosis) How were TCs supposed to protect themselves against Enosis if they didn't have vetoes?

Now TCs have the power (i hope) to make it work, but they still have their maximalistic goals.

I don't agree that only TCs have the power. TCs have the land and the GCs have the representation. TCs complain about having no international representation, GCs complain about their refugees. Both sides have something that the other side wants. Both sides have the power to contribute to a win-win situation.

Hi Alex,

I voted "No" after skimming your proposal but I believe with some tweaks, it's not far from my approval. Here're the reasons.

Revised Property Rights: Original owners will be able to reclaim and use all their property, except that in which refugees with equivalent property to exchange live or that on which there has been major investment – and for such properties they will be compensated. In case an original owner is not entitled to receive his actual home, then as compensation he will be entitled to a new home built for him in the same town or village. The building of these new residences will be co-financed with the support of international donors.

This basically means "Return of All Refugees" or even if they don't return to their original house, they get a new house in the same village/town. I'm not sure if we can talk about bizonality in such a case, can we? Isn't it much better if we could first exchange TC properties in the south with the GC properties in the north as much as we can? Then we can try to work out a formula to enable as many GC refugees as possible to return without affecting the majority status of TCs in the north?

Revised Residence / Voting Rights: There will be no limit to the number of Greek Cypriots who may choose to reside in the north, but with the following arrangement for voting rights: Such Greek Cypriots will vote for the Greek Cypriot constituent state government, and for the Greek Cypriot members of the Federal Government, while for municipal elections only they will vote at the place where they reside in the north. The equivalent to the above will of course apply for Turkish Cypriots living in the south.

See, I have no problem with having limitless GCs in the north as long as TCs control TCCS and it seems like your proposal satisfies that. However, many TCs will not accept limitless GCs in the north. As you know, political power is nothing without economic power. If there are more GCs in the north than the TCs, it's inevitable that the economy will be controlled by GCs and hence the political control of TCCS by TCs will not mean much. I think this will be more acceptable if there was an initial limit of GCs in the north (say 10%) and it gradually increases as long as TCs are majority in the north. Then, TCs can decide if the limit can be lifted, say after 20 years. You might argue this will never happen but at the same time, I don't see why TCs will worry about GCs in the north if everything is going well after 20 years.

Metecyp

Isn't it much better if we could first exchange TC properties in the south with the GC properties in the north as much as we can?

What is better about that?exchange of "properties" will not remedy the ethnic cleansing of Greek Refugees. Ethnic cleansing can only be remedied if the greek refugees are allowed to return to their homes. Changing the ethnic demographics of Kyrenia et cetera is an injustified method of protecting your rights which we recognize are important.

None, Gladius, absolutely none but the same could be said about the turkish speaking Cretans. This is nothing, however, to feel proud about. Lasting peace is our only hope otherwise every time when one side feels strong and powerful the blood circle will start again. Today's losers may be tomorrow's winners and revenge is served cold.

We need a fair and just solution based on the principles we have agreed upon, that is, bicommunal, bizonal federation that will unite Cyprus within the EE. This will provide decades of uninterrupted development, long enough for old resentment feelings to die away. The generations that will follow will not be poisoned like our luckless generation and this will put pay to the sick aspirations of the nationalists of both communities.

What are your views on the bove Gladius?

Bananiot wrote:None, Gladius, absolutely none but the same could be said about the turkish speaking Cretans. This is nothing, however, to feel proud about. Lasting peace is our only hope otherwise every time when one side feels strong and powerful the blood circle will start again. Today's losers may be tomorrow's winners and revenge is served cold.

We need a fair and just solution based on the principles we have agreed upon, that is, bicommunal, bizonal federation that will unite Cyprus within the EE. This will provide decades of uninterrupted development, long enough for old resentment feelings to die away. The generations that will follow will not be poisoned like our luckless generation and this will put pay to the sick aspirations of the nationalists of both communities.

Well said, Bananiot.

Bananiot wrote:None, Gladius, absolutely none but the same could be said about the turkish speaking Cretans. This is nothing, however, to feel proud about. Lasting peace is our only hope otherwise every time when one side feels strong and powerful the blood circle will start again. Today's losers may be tomorrow's winners and revenge is served cold.

We need a fair and just solution based on the principles we have agreed upon, that is, bicommunal, bizonal federation that will unite Cyprus within the EE. This will provide decades of uninterrupted development, long enough for old resentment feelings to die away. The generations that will follow will not be poisoned like our luckless generation and this will put pay to the sick aspirations of the nationalists of both communities.

What are your views on the bove Gladius?

And Turks in Greece also diminished.I dont know If there would be an union at cyprus, but Gladius, You should realy stop to make this type of Posts.

"Remember in Asia Minor there has been a similar situation: 100 years ago there was a flourishing Greek community over there. They opted for troubles and how much of them are left up today? "

These are our and their crimes, not the something we should honored.
We made crimes against to our citizens.I am sorry for this crimes, I wish greeks and Armenians survived in minor asia. .

I am glad we agree on this one Alexandros. Of course I knew all along that you are inspired by moderation, pragmatism and a down to earth approach to our problem. These qualities and some others are obvious in all your contributions.

Regarding your surveys I would like to express my opinion (I should have done this long time ago) and to comment you for your sincere efforts to help out. However I am very much aware of something which I think I should share with you and the rest of the forum members. The opinion of the masses, which you are trying hard to tap, is heavily influenced by what our respective party leaders say. Unfortunately this is a Cypriot phenomenon which I am not proud about. Hence, the opinions you register one day may stand head down the next day. The influence of party leaders is phenomenal and this may make mockery of the most scientific survey. Of course I am not trying to discourage you but I feel I should let you have these thoughts. However, you are probably well aware of this factor but how does one bring it into the general equation?

Thank you Murtaza, this is the true spirit of fraternity and friendship. Since you mentioned Greece, you might like to know that ethnic cleansing of the turkish population and, surprise surprise, jewish population, took place in a number of places during the 1821-1827 revolt against the Ottoman rule. Most notable case is a place called Tripolitsa where even the philellenes (foreigners fighting by the side of the Greeks) left in disgust after the mass murders committed by the victorious Greeks when they entered the town.

Genocides have been committed by many nations, even the most civilised ones. However, civilised nations or civilised individuals if you like, have no problem to admit to such barbaric acts.

This are our and their crimes, not the something we should honored. We made crimes against to our citizens.I am sorry for this crimes, I wish greeks and Armenians survived in minor asia.

For the above, dear friend, I shake your hand!

gladius wrote:It's all a bit amusing reading the statements about what should be done to find a so called "Cyprus Solution" and how sophisticated the arguments are which get used for this.
Dear readers and participants of this forum: The solution came 1974 and will stay forever. The GC's have started troubles and war, they got the bill for loosing these troubles and war and that's it. Maybe some small territorial adjustments will happen in future in order to make traffic or something else easier but no more. And don't worry: considering the stubborness of the GC's shown in international circles, sooner or later the recognition of the TRNC will come together with the lifting of this funny embargoes.

Perhaps you are not aware, but better be!
In 1974, you started a war. You invaded our country, you killed many of us, you raped our women and you forced us out of our ancestral lands and you still occupy our country.

This war is not over yet! In 1974 you didn’t win the war! You just won one battle!
What we have now, is not called peace! What we have now is not called a solution! What we have now is a temporary cease-fire!

Edited. A lot of insults and threats. Threats from quoted part removed

And then you ask why people dont want unification, its posts like this that make me scared to put GC's and TC's together !

Why does everyone not see that the blame can't be put completely on one side? There were too many factors involved that made the come about of 1974.
Anyway in the fear that someone will start shouting at me too I'm outta here.